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Yes. This ^. ChatGPT is especially good at evolving and revising the main idea through a full on conversation. It is not just a query and answer machine. It is

Yes. This ^. ChatGPT is especially good at evolving and revising the main idea through a full on conversation. It is not just a query and answer machine. It is a full on conversational intelligence. Parent is incorrect. chatGPT is literally perfect for what he is describing. I feel people are attacking the things chatGPT excels at out of fear. Things like creativity, originality, true understanding of what's going on. chatGPT is GOOD at these things but people try to attack it. The main problems with chatGPT are truthfulness, honesty, accuracy and consistency. It gets shit wrong but out of fear people need to attack all aspects of chatGPT's intelligence. I find it unlikely the parent even tried to have a conversation with chatGPT about a product at all. A lot of our dismissals are largely surface level and not evidence based. You can bounce thoughts and product ideas off this thing and it will run with you all the way into a parallel universe if you ask it to.

the_af 4y ago
> Things like creativity, originality, true understanding of what's going on. chatGPT is GOOD at these things but people try to attack it. In what sense do you think ChatGPT is good at any of those? It seems evident to me it has no understanding, in the sense that it doesn't build a mental model of your conversation. Try playing tic tac toe with it: it will conduct a seemingly "good" game of it, until you notice it does wrong moves or "forgets" previous positions, or forgets whose turn is it to play. And if you correct it, it will fix the latest error but often introduce new ones. Someone who "understands" the rules of the game wouldn't make those mistakes repeatedly. And that's for a trivial game, imagine something more convoluted! And let's not start with "creativity" ;)
- kilgnad 4y ago
  Take a look at this: https://www.engraved.blog/building-a-virtual-machine-inside/ https://www.engraved.blog/building-a-virtual-machine-inside/ It's mindblowing. Read it to the end all the way to the mindblowing ending. I cannot for the life of me understand how someone can read the above and think chatGPT doesn't understand what's going on. Literally. There is no way this is just some statistical words jumble phenomenon. A lot of people are in denial EVEN when I show them that amazing article. What some people end up doing is trying the task in the article themselves then nitpicking at things chatGPT ends up lying about or getting wrong. Yes it does all of this. It's stupid in many ways but this much is true: That article showed that chatGPT understands what a linux bash shell is, it understands what the internet is, and it understands SELF. What do you call it when something understands SELF? Self awareness. Now i know that's a big word with big connotations. I think movies have kind of exaggerated the gravity of the word a bit too much. In movies, self awareness is skynet taking over the world, in reality self awareness is a simple trivial thing where some AI just understands itself in the context of the real world. Make no mistake. chatGPT is in many instances a stupid and dishonest machine, this is a fact. But it ALSO understands you and it ALSO has a very trivial self awareness. That article is very compelling evidence for this fact. As for creativity, I mean the fact that it can come up with original children stories is the definition of creative. At most what you can say is the creativity chatGPT posesses is generic and unoriginal (but even this can be circumvented if you push chatGPT enough) but you cannot deny it is creative.
  - ted_bunny 4y ago
    I write some scifi and used ChatGPT to design an alien society. It helped me build the concrete basis for the species and their societies. Then I asked it to suggest lists of cognitive biases and patterns of corruption that might arise, with no guidance. It technically only connected existing dots, but the suggestions were chillingly novel. I think like with most things about the human brain, we overestimate complexity and declare creativity ineffable. But that should be suspiciously flattering. If you haven't read Surfing Uncertainty, do. It's right up your alley. Not a casual read, but I was happy just getting the drift.
    - kilgnad 4y ago
      >I think like with most things about the human brain, we overestimate complexity and declare creativity ineffable. Agreed. If anything chatGPT is showing how trivial the whole concept of creativity is. It's not a big deal.
  - wruza 4y ago
    There is no way this is just some statistical words jumble phenomenon. Or it shows that some of us underestimate large phase spaces which never had a chance to emerge naturally and take it too close to heart. AI may have what you talk about in two ways: 1. Built-in as a part of its engineering. This would require a learning set that we don’t have. We have pics, text and combinations of these. No emotion, motivation, live experience, etc. 2. Emerged statistically in pockets of its training results. While we can hypothesize that it is possible, it’s akin to kicking a multi-joint pendulum (of insane order) and expecting it to get stuck in a way that resembles Mona Lisa. Your reasoning itt is based on ignoring false results and writing them off as chatgpt’s intended lies and other tricks humans might do. But you have to explain how that works based on a NN structure, computation method and time (step number) constraints it physically and immutably has.
    - kilgnad 4y ago
      No I'm not writing off the bad results. Also let's be clear. I'm not claiming that chatGPT has motivation or emotion. My claim is that it actually understands things. It understands self as well. My claim is that despite the bad results the good results are so complex it literally must take true understanding to formulate such a result. I get your point about phase space. But given that the underlying equation is made up of neurons and given we are made up of neurons it's not far off to say that human intelligence and LLM intelligence are just similar aspects of the same concept.
- epistemer 4y ago
  This old school rap line it made about Wittgenstein is just hysterical to me Verse 2: Started off with Tractatus, showed us the way Language and reality, they're intertwined in play But then he switched it up, in the Investigations Language-games, context, and new revelations
haswell 4y ago
I am not attacking chatGPT and I'm excited about what this tech will unlock. My point is that chat is not an appropriate interface for many use cases. Not knowing what I want in the moment as a user doesn't automatically mean I want to figure out what I want by having a textual conversation. There are times when I value and prioritize speed of discovery over a perfectly intuitive conversation that leads me there. For use cases that work well with chat, the future looks very bright.
- kilgnad 4y ago
  Understood. I'm saying that talking about a product and bouncing product ideas off of chatGPT and asking for variations and creative additions to the product is something this AI is actually good at and it is very helpful with. But yes, I understand that many times you just want an exact answer quickly.

the_af 4y ago

> Things like creativity, originality, true understanding of what's going on. chatGPT is GOOD at these things but people try to attack it. In what sense do you think ChatGPT is good at any of those? It seems evident to me it has no understanding, in the sense that it doesn't build a mental model of your conversation. Try playing tic tac toe with it: it will conduct a seemingly "good" game of it, until you notice it does wrong moves or "forgets" previous positions, or forgets whose turn is it to play. And if you correct it, it will fix the latest error but often introduce new ones. Someone who "understands" the rules of the game wouldn't make those mistakes repeatedly. And that's for a trivial game, imagine something more convoluted! And let's not start with "creativity" ;)

kilgnad 4y ago
Take a look at this: https://www.engraved.blog/building-a-virtual-machine-inside/ https://www.engraved.blog/building-a-virtual-machine-inside/ It's mindblowing. Read it to the end all the way to the mindblowing ending. I cannot for the life of me understand how someone can read the above and think chatGPT doesn't understand what's going on. Literally. There is no way this is just some statistical words jumble phenomenon. A lot of people are in denial EVEN when I show them that amazing article. What some people end up doing is trying the task in the article themselves then nitpicking at things chatGPT ends up lying about or getting wrong. Yes it does all of this. It's stupid in many ways but this much is true: That article showed that chatGPT understands what a linux bash shell is, it understands what the internet is, and it understands SELF. What do you call it when something understands SELF? Self awareness. Now i know that's a big word with big connotations. I think movies have kind of exaggerated the gravity of the word a bit too much. In movies, self awareness is skynet taking over the world, in reality self awareness is a simple trivial thing where some AI just understands itself in the context of the real world. Make no mistake. chatGPT is in many instances a stupid and dishonest machine, this is a fact. But it ALSO understands you and it ALSO has a very trivial self awareness. That article is very compelling evidence for this fact. As for creativity, I mean the fact that it can come up with original children stories is the definition of creative. At most what you can say is the creativity chatGPT posesses is generic and unoriginal (but even this can be circumvented if you push chatGPT enough) but you cannot deny it is creative.
- ted_bunny 4y ago
  I write some scifi and used ChatGPT to design an alien society. It helped me build the concrete basis for the species and their societies. Then I asked it to suggest lists of cognitive biases and patterns of corruption that might arise, with no guidance. It technically only connected existing dots, but the suggestions were chillingly novel. I think like with most things about the human brain, we overestimate complexity and declare creativity ineffable. But that should be suspiciously flattering. If you haven't read Surfing Uncertainty, do. It's right up your alley. Not a casual read, but I was happy just getting the drift.
  - kilgnad 4y ago
    >I think like with most things about the human brain, we overestimate complexity and declare creativity ineffable. Agreed. If anything chatGPT is showing how trivial the whole concept of creativity is. It's not a big deal.
- wruza 4y ago
  There is no way this is just some statistical words jumble phenomenon. Or it shows that some of us underestimate large phase spaces which never had a chance to emerge naturally and take it too close to heart. AI may have what you talk about in two ways: 1. Built-in as a part of its engineering. This would require a learning set that we don’t have. We have pics, text and combinations of these. No emotion, motivation, live experience, etc. 2. Emerged statistically in pockets of its training results. While we can hypothesize that it is possible, it’s akin to kicking a multi-joint pendulum (of insane order) and expecting it to get stuck in a way that resembles Mona Lisa. Your reasoning itt is based on ignoring false results and writing them off as chatgpt’s intended lies and other tricks humans might do. But you have to explain how that works based on a NN structure, computation method and time (step number) constraints it physically and immutably has.
  - kilgnad 4y ago
    No I'm not writing off the bad results. Also let's be clear. I'm not claiming that chatGPT has motivation or emotion. My claim is that it actually understands things. It understands self as well. My claim is that despite the bad results the good results are so complex it literally must take true understanding to formulate such a result. I get your point about phase space. But given that the underlying equation is made up of neurons and given we are made up of neurons it's not far off to say that human intelligence and LLM intelligence are just similar aspects of the same concept.
epistemer 4y ago
This old school rap line it made about Wittgenstein is just hysterical to me Verse 2: Started off with Tractatus, showed us the way Language and reality, they're intertwined in play But then he switched it up, in the Investigations Language-games, context, and new revelations

haswell 4y ago

I am not attacking chatGPT and I'm excited about what this tech will unlock. My point is that chat is not an appropriate interface for many use cases. Not knowing what I want in the moment as a user doesn't automatically mean I want to figure out what I want by having a textual conversation. There are times when I value and prioritize speed of discovery over a perfectly intuitive conversation that leads me there. For use cases that work well with chat, the future looks very bright.

kilgnad 4y ago
Understood. I'm saying that talking about a product and bouncing product ideas off of chatGPT and asking for variations and creative additions to the product is something this AI is actually good at and it is very helpful with. But yes, I understand that many times you just want an exact answer quickly.