6 ms·

Serious question: is it even possible to get a well-paying dev position that doesn't have one or more of the clauses listed in the article? Another considerati

Serious question: is it even possible to get a well-paying dev position that doesn't have one or more of the clauses listed in the article? Another consideration is whether the contract can be enforced and your legal recourse if the counter-party attempts to enforce an invalid contract clause. This is particularly true for noncompetes. A better piece of advice than "never sign" is to simply find an employment lawyer and discuss the ramifications of the contract prior to signing.

claytonjy 4y ago
I have successfully negotiated my way out of non-competes and other onerous employment contract terms. Only at small- or medium-sized startups, though, not big tech. In general the bigger the company, the less willing legal is to play ball. I suspect going for rather senior roles helps, too.
- thwayunion 4y ago
  Non-competes are dog-eat-dog "fuck you" territory for me. I don't even bother negotiating. I happily sign non-competes, but will never sign a non-compete that's actually enforceable. If their lawyers want to lie to me about what's legal in my state, I'm happy to let them engage in unfair and deceptive behavior right up until there are actual damages. More importantly, I would also happily fight them in court if it came to that (and retire on the triple damages). I'm thinking of some of the other clauses: 1. "one-sided termination clause": Every contract in an at-will jurisdictions without a guaranteed exit bonus contains, implicitly or otherwise, a "one-sided termination clause". I have never seen a contract for "normal working stiffs" that contains an exit bonus, and I've only ever worked in at-will jurisdictions. 2. IP assignment 3. Confidentiality agreements with broad language
  - TylerE 4y ago
    Very, very, bad idea. Never sign something you disagree with because you believe it to be unenforceable.
    - toomuchtodo 4y ago
      I disagree. My employment attorney recently reviewed a "non compete non solicitation" doc for an engagement and said, "it's copied from LegalZoom and is so badly written it will be unenforcible in the jurisdiction and here is why." They earned their $300 for reviewing my employment docs (for reasons beyond this specific issue). When in doubt, seek counsel and follow their guidance.
      - TylerE 4y ago
        That's...rather different. You actually consulted an attorney. 99.9% of the people trying this one weird trick do not, often to their great cost.
        deleted 4y ago
        [deleted]
    - sidewndr46 4y ago
      How would you even function in the US? Just one time to get an apartment they had me sign an agreement stating I was not in the military, had never been in the military & would not join so long as I lived there. Keep in mind, I was subject to conscription at the time. The whole thing is laughably unenforceable as well. They're trying to end run around federal law protecting members of the uniformed services. You can write any contract you want & have anyone you want sign it about. Doesn't mean anything, at all. Also I'm pretty sure if I got called up to go to war, there is going to be someone in the DoD who can give me a little legal help in explaining to the landlord how hard they need to pound sand.
      - TylerE 4y ago
        That’s a good example, but most contracts have language such as “if any clause of this contract is found to be invalid, the rest remains in force”. So yea, in a case like that that part of the contract would be struck, but it isn’t a get out of jail free card for the entire contract.
  - listenallyall 4y ago
    Are you a lawyer? Or do you have a lawyer review every contract you sign? Just curious how you are so confident a particular contract, or clause within, is unenforceable. Not saying you're wrong, but how do you know?
    - thwayunion 4y ago
      > Are you a lawyer? No, and my posts are not legal advice. > Or do you have a lawyer review every contract you sign? Yes, and they provide me with legal advice specific to my situation. > Just curious how you are so confident a particular contract, or clause within, is unenforceable. Not saying you're wrong, but how do you know? MA statute is very clearly written and its courts don't have a reputation for fucking around with legislative intent.
BeetleB 4y ago
My (well known, big) company doesn't do non-competes. They do have the clause of not poaching employees for a year after you leave, though. And I'm free to work on other stuff or have a side business. People in the company disagree on how much of that needs to be disclosed, though.
weaksauce 4y ago
in some states those clauses aren't enforceable like in california.

claytonjy 4y ago

I have successfully negotiated my way out of non-competes and other onerous employment contract terms. Only at small- or medium-sized startups, though, not big tech. In general the bigger the company, the less willing legal is to play ball. I suspect going for rather senior roles helps, too.

thwayunion 4y ago
Non-competes are dog-eat-dog "fuck you" territory for me. I don't even bother negotiating. I happily sign non-competes, but will never sign a non-compete that's actually enforceable. If their lawyers want to lie to me about what's legal in my state, I'm happy to let them engage in unfair and deceptive behavior right up until there are actual damages. More importantly, I would also happily fight them in court if it came to that (and retire on the triple damages). I'm thinking of some of the other clauses: 1. "one-sided termination clause": Every contract in an at-will jurisdictions without a guaranteed exit bonus contains, implicitly or otherwise, a "one-sided termination clause". I have never seen a contract for "normal working stiffs" that contains an exit bonus, and I've only ever worked in at-will jurisdictions. 2. IP assignment 3. Confidentiality agreements with broad language
- TylerE 4y ago
  Very, very, bad idea. Never sign something you disagree with because you believe it to be unenforceable.
  - toomuchtodo 4y ago
    I disagree. My employment attorney recently reviewed a "non compete non solicitation" doc for an engagement and said, "it's copied from LegalZoom and is so badly written it will be unenforcible in the jurisdiction and here is why." They earned their $300 for reviewing my employment docs (for reasons beyond this specific issue). When in doubt, seek counsel and follow their guidance.
    - TylerE 4y ago
      That's...rather different. You actually consulted an attorney. 99.9% of the people trying this one weird trick do not, often to their great cost.
      - deleted 4y ago
        [deleted]
  - sidewndr46 4y ago
    How would you even function in the US? Just one time to get an apartment they had me sign an agreement stating I was not in the military, had never been in the military & would not join so long as I lived there. Keep in mind, I was subject to conscription at the time. The whole thing is laughably unenforceable as well. They're trying to end run around federal law protecting members of the uniformed services. You can write any contract you want & have anyone you want sign it about. Doesn't mean anything, at all. Also I'm pretty sure if I got called up to go to war, there is going to be someone in the DoD who can give me a little legal help in explaining to the landlord how hard they need to pound sand.
    - TylerE 4y ago
      That’s a good example, but most contracts have language such as “if any clause of this contract is found to be invalid, the rest remains in force”. So yea, in a case like that that part of the contract would be struck, but it isn’t a get out of jail free card for the entire contract.
- listenallyall 4y ago
  Are you a lawyer? Or do you have a lawyer review every contract you sign? Just curious how you are so confident a particular contract, or clause within, is unenforceable. Not saying you're wrong, but how do you know?
  - thwayunion 4y ago
    > Are you a lawyer? No, and my posts are not legal advice. > Or do you have a lawyer review every contract you sign? Yes, and they provide me with legal advice specific to my situation. > Just curious how you are so confident a particular contract, or clause within, is unenforceable. Not saying you're wrong, but how do you know? MA statute is very clearly written and its courts don't have a reputation for fucking around with legislative intent.

BeetleB 4y ago

My (well known, big) company doesn't do non-competes. They do have the clause of not poaching employees for a year after you leave, though. And I'm free to work on other stuff or have a side business. People in the company disagree on how much of that needs to be disclosed, though.

weaksauce 4y ago

in some states those clauses aren't enforceable like in california.