4 ms·

Also verify that anything you're signing when you leave matches what you signed when you were hired. I recently left a company where, when I was hired, I had a

by smeej 4y ago

Also verify that anything you're signing when you leave matches what you signed when you were hired. I recently left a company where, when I was hired, I had agreed in "Appendix C" not to recruit any of their employees away from them for a period of 12 months after separation. When I actually separated after more than two years, the "Appendix C" they wanted me to sign and presented as the one I had agreed to at hire now said 24 months. I told them I was happy to stand by my original agreement of 12 months, but I had no incentive to extend to 24 and would not be doing so. They sent me one with the right number and I signed. Their story was that, in the two years since I'd signed, they changed Appendix C and had "accidentally" given me the one that pertained to people who had been hired after me under the revised terms. I'm willing to give them the benefit of the doubt, because why believe people are malicious when they could just as well be careless?

tpxl 4y ago
> because why believe people are malicious when they could just as well be careless? When your job is to be careful, being careless is nothing but malicious.
- lazyweb 4y ago
  I'd tend to agree, but then again, there's so many people who are just bad at their job. Attention to detail is a skill which many do not care to sharpen.
- Karunamon 4y ago
  Everyone's job is to be careful.
- smeej 4y ago
  I'm sure the person who actually sent me the form was some low-level functionary. All I did was say the equivalent of, "Hey, this isn't the right form," and he went back to his supervisors and got the right one. I sincerely don't think there was malice involved, certainly not at his level, so I just treated it like that.
phphphphp 4y ago
I can believe that they're careless and used the wrong copy of a document but I'm not sure I understand why you're signing an agreement like that on exit: you've signed it on hiring so that regardless of the outcome of your employment, you're bound to the anti-poach. The only reason I can think that they'd ask you to sign the agreement again on exit is that they wanted to bind you into something new -- what explanation did they give?
- BurningFrog 4y ago
  I guess it's a reminder, so you can't claim you forgot about it. Some wrinkle of "the law" probably works that way?
  - Ensorceled 4y ago
    > I guess it's a reminder I would happily sign a 1 page document that said, "I acknowledge that I have been reminded of my obligations under the document signed April 1, 2004 and been provided with paper copies of said agreement."
    - b112 4y ago
      I probably wouldn't be happy, because what? Are we children? Part of the issue is that lawyers get too free of a hand sometimes. We signed, agreed, that part is over. Frankly I have never attended an "exit interview", and never will. That said, if someone want a reminder sign, as you say, I'd expect the corp to sign one too, and give me a copy, as well. When signing contract between two entities, neither side is special.
- cillian64 4y ago
  Often a company will offer severance more generous than they are contractually/legally obliged to in exchange for the leaver signing some extra restrictions beyond what was in the original employment contract.
- cj 4y ago
  > The only reason I can think that they'd ask you to sign the agreement again on exit is that they wanted to bind you into something new In the Clerky boilerplate employment docs, used by many YC companies, the employment agreement contains a Termination Certificate along with a clause that says something like “upon leaving the company you agree to sign the Termination Certificate in the appendix”. So technically, in the case of Clerky’s boilerplate docs, you agree to sign the termination form before employment even begins. FWIW the termination certificate I’m thinking of is a very simple 1 page agreement basically just acknowledging to the company that you have returned all company IP, hardware, etc to the company and agree to continue to abide by the original employment agreement. It doesn’t really add any additional obligations. I suppose the benefit to the company is just a reconfirmation that you are aware of the terms of the original agreement and that you’ve followed through with basic duties such as returning confidential data, hardware, etc to the company. That said, many employers have additional severance agreements that can add lots of additional expectations such as non-disparagement clauses, but that’s typically only done in exchange for additional severance the the company isn’t legally obligated to provide you (in which case you can absolutely say you won’t sign the agreement if you want to forgo the severance payment)
nhchris 4y ago
Why would you need to sign anything when you leave?
- anticensor 4y ago
  Things like "we have all the debts settled and are good to part ways" are OK IMO.
- smeej 4y ago
  I agreed to when I was hired. It was a basic summary doc: I've returned everything that isn't mine. I haven't kept records of things I'm not allowed to keep. I'm not going to poach your customers or employees (for 12 months, which was the part they tried to change to 24).
mytailorisrich 4y ago
It works both ways. Maybe you cross a term you don't like in the employment contract before returning it to them signed and they never notice... It happens.
dilyevsky 4y ago
Easiest way to do this is to not sign anything unless it involves extra pay. I’ve politely refused HR’s request to re-sign bunch of documents before when leaving - I didn’t feel like digging through them or paying a lawyer and they had zero leverage
- thwayunion 4y ago
  I've never refused, but I do always outline the (usually low four figure) cost in time and legal expenses required to review the contract. I close by explaining that I cannot in good faith enter into an ostensibly binding contract without some form of consideration from my counter-party because such a contract would be difficult to enforce in any case. HR never knows what to do and usually just never gets around to replying to the email.
- jrockway 4y ago
  I don't even politely reply. At my last job, HR sent me a "contract" offering $1 in exchange for agreeing not to work in the industry for 1 year. I archived their email and never spoke to them again :) It would really depend on the job, of course. I didn't really care about that one, and didn't see myself ever wanting to work with that founder again, so I didn't make any effort to be "nice" in any way. If I ever left my current job, I would make sure to stay on the best of terms. I would be annoyed if they paid me $1 to not work for a year, but I also know they would never ask for that.
- smeej 4y ago
  I had signed a contract at hire saying I would sign the separation agreement when I left. I didn't have any issue with the agreement I had already made. I just wasn't willing to change it as I was voluntarily leaving and they weren't offering me anything to change the terms. I'm not even 100% sure I would have noticed it except that my new employer required disclosure of any restrictions I had, so I disclosed the 12-month non-recruit from the previous company. It was fresh to mind. The two companies are in the same general industry, but do not compete with each other.
jrib 4y ago
> why believe people are malicious when they could just as well be careless? For those who like named things: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hanlon%27s_razor https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hanlon%27s_razor
nly 4y ago
Since when do you sign anything when you leave a job? Weird.
eschneider 4y ago
Yeah...when I left a job in 2021, HR presented me with a bunch of new agreements that they wanted me to sign. I explained to them that it just didn't work that way.
- jrockway 4y ago
  With enough compensation it could work. I'd sign "we'll give you $5M to not work for 1 year." Stream casual games on Twitch for a year :)
  - eschneider 4y ago
    Sure. But they were just "Hey, sign these new agreements before you leave." Yeah...no.
matheusmoreira 4y ago
> I'm willing to give them the benefit of the doubt, because why believe people are malicious when they could just as well be careless? Funny how their "carelessness" always seems to benefit them at our expense.
dragonwriter 4y ago
> Also verify that anything you're signing when you leave matches what you signed when you were hired.b Better, just don't sign anything when leaving without sufficient new consideration. If they really want to five you a reminder of what you signed when you joined, that’s what copiers are for.

by smeej 4y ago

tpxl 4y ago

> because why believe people are malicious when they could just as well be careless? When your job is to be careful, being careless is nothing but malicious.

lazyweb 4y ago
I'd tend to agree, but then again, there's so many people who are just bad at their job. Attention to detail is a skill which many do not care to sharpen.
Karunamon 4y ago
Everyone's job is to be careful.
smeej 4y ago
I'm sure the person who actually sent me the form was some low-level functionary. All I did was say the equivalent of, "Hey, this isn't the right form," and he went back to his supervisors and got the right one. I sincerely don't think there was malice involved, certainly not at his level, so I just treated it like that.

phphphphp 4y ago

I can believe that they're careless and used the wrong copy of a document but I'm not sure I understand why you're signing an agreement like that on exit: you've signed it on hiring so that regardless of the outcome of your employment, you're bound to the anti-poach. The only reason I can think that they'd ask you to sign the agreement again on exit is that they wanted to bind you into something new -- what explanation did they give?

BurningFrog 4y ago
I guess it's a reminder, so you can't claim you forgot about it. Some wrinkle of "the law" probably works that way?
- Ensorceled 4y ago
  > I guess it's a reminder I would happily sign a 1 page document that said, "I acknowledge that I have been reminded of my obligations under the document signed April 1, 2004 and been provided with paper copies of said agreement."
  - b112 4y ago
    I probably wouldn't be happy, because what? Are we children? Part of the issue is that lawyers get too free of a hand sometimes. We signed, agreed, that part is over. Frankly I have never attended an "exit interview", and never will. That said, if someone want a reminder sign, as you say, I'd expect the corp to sign one too, and give me a copy, as well. When signing contract between two entities, neither side is special.
cillian64 4y ago
Often a company will offer severance more generous than they are contractually/legally obliged to in exchange for the leaver signing some extra restrictions beyond what was in the original employment contract.
cj 4y ago
> The only reason I can think that they'd ask you to sign the agreement again on exit is that they wanted to bind you into something new In the Clerky boilerplate employment docs, used by many YC companies, the employment agreement contains a Termination Certificate along with a clause that says something like “upon leaving the company you agree to sign the Termination Certificate in the appendix”. So technically, in the case of Clerky’s boilerplate docs, you agree to sign the termination form before employment even begins. FWIW the termination certificate I’m thinking of is a very simple 1 page agreement basically just acknowledging to the company that you have returned all company IP, hardware, etc to the company and agree to continue to abide by the original employment agreement. It doesn’t really add any additional obligations. I suppose the benefit to the company is just a reconfirmation that you are aware of the terms of the original agreement and that you’ve followed through with basic duties such as returning confidential data, hardware, etc to the company. That said, many employers have additional severance agreements that can add lots of additional expectations such as non-disparagement clauses, but that’s typically only done in exchange for additional severance the the company isn’t legally obligated to provide you (in which case you can absolutely say you won’t sign the agreement if you want to forgo the severance payment)

nhchris 4y ago

Why would you need to sign anything when you leave?

anticensor 4y ago
Things like "we have all the debts settled and are good to part ways" are OK IMO.
smeej 4y ago
I agreed to when I was hired. It was a basic summary doc: I've returned everything that isn't mine. I haven't kept records of things I'm not allowed to keep. I'm not going to poach your customers or employees (for 12 months, which was the part they tried to change to 24).

mytailorisrich 4y ago

It works both ways. Maybe you cross a term you don't like in the employment contract before returning it to them signed and they never notice... It happens.

dilyevsky 4y ago

Easiest way to do this is to not sign anything unless it involves extra pay. I’ve politely refused HR’s request to re-sign bunch of documents before when leaving - I didn’t feel like digging through them or paying a lawyer and they had zero leverage

thwayunion 4y ago
I've never refused, but I do always outline the (usually low four figure) cost in time and legal expenses required to review the contract. I close by explaining that I cannot in good faith enter into an ostensibly binding contract without some form of consideration from my counter-party because such a contract would be difficult to enforce in any case. HR never knows what to do and usually just never gets around to replying to the email.
jrockway 4y ago
I don't even politely reply. At my last job, HR sent me a "contract" offering $1 in exchange for agreeing not to work in the industry for 1 year. I archived their email and never spoke to them again :) It would really depend on the job, of course. I didn't really care about that one, and didn't see myself ever wanting to work with that founder again, so I didn't make any effort to be "nice" in any way. If I ever left my current job, I would make sure to stay on the best of terms. I would be annoyed if they paid me $1 to not work for a year, but I also know they would never ask for that.
smeej 4y ago
I had signed a contract at hire saying I would sign the separation agreement when I left. I didn't have any issue with the agreement I had already made. I just wasn't willing to change it as I was voluntarily leaving and they weren't offering me anything to change the terms. I'm not even 100% sure I would have noticed it except that my new employer required disclosure of any restrictions I had, so I disclosed the 12-month non-recruit from the previous company. It was fresh to mind. The two companies are in the same general industry, but do not compete with each other.

jrib 4y ago

> why believe people are malicious when they could just as well be careless? For those who like named things: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hanlon%27s_razor https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hanlon%27s_razor

nly 4y ago

Since when do you sign anything when you leave a job? Weird.

eschneider 4y ago

Yeah...when I left a job in 2021, HR presented me with a bunch of new agreements that they wanted me to sign. I explained to them that it just didn't work that way.

jrockway 4y ago
With enough compensation it could work. I'd sign "we'll give you $5M to not work for 1 year." Stream casual games on Twitch for a year :)
- eschneider 4y ago
  Sure. But they were just "Hey, sign these new agreements before you leave." Yeah...no.

matheusmoreira 4y ago

> I'm willing to give them the benefit of the doubt, because why believe people are malicious when they could just as well be careless? Funny how their "carelessness" always seems to benefit them at our expense.

dragonwriter 4y ago

> Also verify that anything you're signing when you leave matches what you signed when you were hired.b Better, just don't sign anything when leaving without sufficient new consideration. If they really want to five you a reminder of what you signed when you joined, that’s what copiers are for.