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> at the detriment of the US Somehow people around here in the balkans have been getting the feeling that pretty much every thing every EU country did in the l

> at the detriment of the US Somehow people around here in the balkans have been getting the feeling that pretty much every thing every EU country did in the last year, has been favorable to US and detrimental to european citizens... Be it Scholz, Macron, ursula, etc. Whatever move they do, people of europe lose, and US gains something.

Baeocystin 4y ago
Why? Can you give examples? Honest question, not arguing. I live in California, and don't have much contact with the zeitgeist of the Balkans/Europe in general.
- ur-whale 4y ago
  > Why? Can you give examples? Here's an example: The EU has backed the Ukraine, a war that was mostly created by the US pushing NATO boundaries outwards and backing Russia's dictator into a completely untenable corner. The EU did this at its own detriment, with very questionable legitimacy (the EU was never given a mandate to deal in such geopolitical issues) plunging the entire continent into an energy crisis the like of which hasn't been seen since the oil crisis in the 70s. Ask any small to medium company in Germany how they plan to pay their gas bills in the coming 2 years other that declaring bankruptcy.
  - dragonwriter 4y ago
    > The EU has backed the Ukraine, a war that was mostly created by the US pushing NATO boundaries outwards and backing Russia’s dictator into a completely untenable corner. The War in Ukraine was entirely created by Russia pushing Russia’s boundaries. In any case, the US hasn’t pushed NATO’s boundaries, Eastern European countries applying to join NATO have “pushed” it. The US has mostly slowed that process more than the applying countries want to assure readiness (which, in part, is I guess a long-picture contributor to the war, since long before Putin decided NATO expansion was an affront to Russia, he was demanding Russia be admitted to NATO without the usual readiness process.)
    - ajsnigrutin 4y ago
      Cuba didn't push US boundries, they just chose to be friendly with a country that US wasn't friendly with. and now, 60 years laters: https://apnews.com/article/middle-east-business-cuba-israel-europe-bf38ea2b62324cbd9ed3ce10905883d8 https://apnews.com/article/middle-east-business-cuba-israel-... > UN votes overwhelmingly to condemn US embargo of Cuba > The vote in the 193-member General Assembly was 185 countries supporting the condemnation, the United States and Israel opposing it, and Brazil and Ukraine abstaining. (let's not forget https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Northwoods https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Northwoods )
      - dragonwriter 4y ago
        > Cuba didn’t push US boundries What does Cuba have to do with this?
        _kbh_ 4y ago
        It’s whataboutism to try and excuse Russias brutal invasion and genocide of Ukraine and Ukrainians.
        ajsnigrutin 4y ago
        We've had similar conflicts and wars in the past, and we must look how we treated them to ask ourselves why are we treating this one differently... except that it was 'us' who started most of the others. European (well, roman) law is based on a set of rules and treating everyone by those rules, and american (case) law is based on historic cases and how we treated those. So yeah, history matters.
      - ztrww 4y ago
        Cubans also overthrew a government that had very close ties to the US significantly damaging American business interests in the process. That does not make American action any more justifiable just much more understandable. However again.. how is this relevant. Russia signed a treaty guaranteeing Ukrainian neutrality and independence in the 90s. Which they totally threw away at the first signs of Ukraine actually becoming neutral rather than an Russian puppet state.
  - 314 4y ago
    > The EU has backed the Ukraine, a war that was mostly created by the US pushing NATO boundaries outwards and backing Russia's dictator into a completely untenable corner. This is a curiously uninformed take that ignores the reality of Russia invading other sovereign countries.
    - ajsnigrutin 4y ago
      Invading other sovereign countries is a "daily occurance" for many countries, be it middle east, africa or somethimes even within europe. So is bombing those countries, bombing across the disputed border, etc. Also drone bombing countries you're not even at war with and hitting weddings... or political leaders of those countries. Also interfering in countries internal politics, staging coups, assassinations, financing terrorists groups... oh wait, freedom fighters (they only become terrorists after they turn against usa), and targeting "digital targets", from "classic hacking" to stuff like stuxnet. The difference now (for us, europeans) is, that because of this specific occupation, which isn't done by "us" or "our friends" (we would help with the occupation if it was), our politicians are willing to screw massively with our economies, degrade the quality of life for normal people, endanger basically everyone in the world with looming prospects of WW3, conduct possibly internal terrorism (nord steam) and kill a bunch of people who'd prefer living normal lives... and all of that for what? Because nato (mostly americans) are in a dick measuring contest with putin, or maybe as a 'revenge', because of cuba, or who knows.... in the end, politicans stay rich, military industrial complex gets a lot richer, normal people in europe get fucked, ad soldiers die.
      - 314 4y ago
        Whataboutism does not change the facts. A comparison to other events does not change the reality of what has happened. Russia invaded Ukraine.
        ajsnigrutin 4y ago
        But you need to do a comparison... why treat this differently than any other war? ...except that we were the ones who started all those other wars?
  - ztrww 4y ago
    gas prices are at the same level they have been before the war > untenable what exactly was untenable about it? Russia could have easily come to some sort of an agreement more or less acceptable to all of the sides back in 2014. They had no interest in that. Neutral Ukraine was never an acceptable option to Putin…
pkaye 4y ago
Can you given some examples?
- ajsnigrutin 4y ago
  Some were given above in the thread. Generally, for us ukraine is just another afghanistan mixed with cuba... there are some geopolitical interests and on the other hand, a "foreign superpower" is stepping on the front yard of nother superpower. A short war with maybe a regime change, maybe some lines on the map move, some angry stares, and that's it. I live in a small eu country (slovenia), and even we helped with afghanistan, and our army is almost nonexistant. Also with syria. Other european countries did the same, lybia, iraq, etc. France is occupying or atleast strongly interfering with a bunch of african countries... and israel-palestine conflict is such a daily thing, noone even remembres it's happening anymore (except the people who die.. well, the people who lose friends and relatives due to it). And now... instead of angry stares and maybe some basic sanctions, the european economy is getting fucked, we're at the brink of WW3, the german minister directly said that "we're at war with russia", energy prices are skyrocketing, industry is closing down, a food crisis is coming, and instead of a few dead and some destroyed vehicles, we're in six-digit numbers not even couting the wounded. Someone also destroyed the nord stream, it wasn't the russians, and somehow the media has forgotten about that.. the politicians either don't know and don't care who did it (very bad), or know and don't want to tell their people (even worse). And the "normal people" get fucked the most, as always. Europe could have let putin have this and instead build an inpenetrable defensive wall at the eastern eu border as a response to that... but instead, we're at the brink of WW3. On the other hand, we're sending weapons and replacing them with new ones, we cannot afford... mostly from americans, buying gas at too-high prices... from americans, and getting deindustrialized and demilitarized in turn.
  - ztrww 4y ago
    > ukraine is just another afghanistan mixed with cuba No it’s not. > inpenetrable defensive wall modern conflicts don’t work that way. This was already useless as a deterrence prior to WW2 (a wall and having Germany have Czechoslovakia did sure protect France from an invasion didn’t it?) > food crisis sure.. let’s just spam random nonsense
sofixa 4y ago
> Somehow people around here in the balkans have been getting the feeling that pretty much every thing every EU country did in the last year, has been favorable to US and detrimental to european citizens... Be it Scholz, Macron, ursula, etc. Whatever move they do, people of europe lose, and US gains something. Considering the last year includes the announcement of the Digital Markets and Services Acts, which will heavy hurt big oligopolistic companies by forcing them to be interoperable, and most of those are American, that's a weird take and the only explanation i can find is shitty media consumption blaming the US for Russia's invasion of Ukraine.
- ur-whale 4y ago
  >Considering the last year includes the announcement of the Digital Markets and Services Acts, which will heavy hurt big oligopolistic companies You're conflating the interests of a bunch of - maybe large but overall not that important - US corporations and the geopolitical interests of US as a nation. These simply aren't on the same scale. Things like the Digital Markets and Services Acts are at most mild irritants to the US. They're also useful in the sense that they allow the EU to believe they're still in control of their destiny. War-in-Ukraine level geopolitical events are what ultimately matter to the US as a country, not things that make Google grumpy.
  - actionfromafar 4y ago
    Are you saying the US started the war in the Ukraine? Or what are you insinuating?

Baeocystin 4y ago

Why? Can you give examples? Honest question, not arguing. I live in California, and don't have much contact with the zeitgeist of the Balkans/Europe in general.

ur-whale 4y ago
> Why? Can you give examples? Here's an example: The EU has backed the Ukraine, a war that was mostly created by the US pushing NATO boundaries outwards and backing Russia's dictator into a completely untenable corner. The EU did this at its own detriment, with very questionable legitimacy (the EU was never given a mandate to deal in such geopolitical issues) plunging the entire continent into an energy crisis the like of which hasn't been seen since the oil crisis in the 70s. Ask any small to medium company in Germany how they plan to pay their gas bills in the coming 2 years other that declaring bankruptcy.
- dragonwriter 4y ago
  > The EU has backed the Ukraine, a war that was mostly created by the US pushing NATO boundaries outwards and backing Russia’s dictator into a completely untenable corner. The War in Ukraine was entirely created by Russia pushing Russia’s boundaries. In any case, the US hasn’t pushed NATO’s boundaries, Eastern European countries applying to join NATO have “pushed” it. The US has mostly slowed that process more than the applying countries want to assure readiness (which, in part, is I guess a long-picture contributor to the war, since long before Putin decided NATO expansion was an affront to Russia, he was demanding Russia be admitted to NATO without the usual readiness process.)
  - ajsnigrutin 4y ago
    Cuba didn't push US boundries, they just chose to be friendly with a country that US wasn't friendly with. and now, 60 years laters: https://apnews.com/article/middle-east-business-cuba-israel-europe-bf38ea2b62324cbd9ed3ce10905883d8 https://apnews.com/article/middle-east-business-cuba-israel-... > UN votes overwhelmingly to condemn US embargo of Cuba > The vote in the 193-member General Assembly was 185 countries supporting the condemnation, the United States and Israel opposing it, and Brazil and Ukraine abstaining. (let's not forget https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Northwoods https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Northwoods )
    - dragonwriter 4y ago
      > Cuba didn’t push US boundries What does Cuba have to do with this?
      - _kbh_ 4y ago
        It’s whataboutism to try and excuse Russias brutal invasion and genocide of Ukraine and Ukrainians.
      - ajsnigrutin 4y ago
        We've had similar conflicts and wars in the past, and we must look how we treated them to ask ourselves why are we treating this one differently... except that it was 'us' who started most of the others. European (well, roman) law is based on a set of rules and treating everyone by those rules, and american (case) law is based on historic cases and how we treated those. So yeah, history matters.
    - ztrww 4y ago
      Cubans also overthrew a government that had very close ties to the US significantly damaging American business interests in the process. That does not make American action any more justifiable just much more understandable. However again.. how is this relevant. Russia signed a treaty guaranteeing Ukrainian neutrality and independence in the 90s. Which they totally threw away at the first signs of Ukraine actually becoming neutral rather than an Russian puppet state.
- 314 4y ago
  > The EU has backed the Ukraine, a war that was mostly created by the US pushing NATO boundaries outwards and backing Russia's dictator into a completely untenable corner. This is a curiously uninformed take that ignores the reality of Russia invading other sovereign countries.
  - ajsnigrutin 4y ago
    Invading other sovereign countries is a "daily occurance" for many countries, be it middle east, africa or somethimes even within europe. So is bombing those countries, bombing across the disputed border, etc. Also drone bombing countries you're not even at war with and hitting weddings... or political leaders of those countries. Also interfering in countries internal politics, staging coups, assassinations, financing terrorists groups... oh wait, freedom fighters (they only become terrorists after they turn against usa), and targeting "digital targets", from "classic hacking" to stuff like stuxnet. The difference now (for us, europeans) is, that because of this specific occupation, which isn't done by "us" or "our friends" (we would help with the occupation if it was), our politicians are willing to screw massively with our economies, degrade the quality of life for normal people, endanger basically everyone in the world with looming prospects of WW3, conduct possibly internal terrorism (nord steam) and kill a bunch of people who'd prefer living normal lives... and all of that for what? Because nato (mostly americans) are in a dick measuring contest with putin, or maybe as a 'revenge', because of cuba, or who knows.... in the end, politicans stay rich, military industrial complex gets a lot richer, normal people in europe get fucked, ad soldiers die.
    - 314 4y ago
      Whataboutism does not change the facts. A comparison to other events does not change the reality of what has happened. Russia invaded Ukraine.
      - ajsnigrutin 4y ago
        But you need to do a comparison... why treat this differently than any other war? ...except that we were the ones who started all those other wars?
- ztrww 4y ago
  gas prices are at the same level they have been before the war > untenable what exactly was untenable about it? Russia could have easily come to some sort of an agreement more or less acceptable to all of the sides back in 2014. They had no interest in that. Neutral Ukraine was never an acceptable option to Putin…

pkaye 4y ago

Can you given some examples?

ajsnigrutin 4y ago
Some were given above in the thread. Generally, for us ukraine is just another afghanistan mixed with cuba... there are some geopolitical interests and on the other hand, a "foreign superpower" is stepping on the front yard of nother superpower. A short war with maybe a regime change, maybe some lines on the map move, some angry stares, and that's it. I live in a small eu country (slovenia), and even we helped with afghanistan, and our army is almost nonexistant. Also with syria. Other european countries did the same, lybia, iraq, etc. France is occupying or atleast strongly interfering with a bunch of african countries... and israel-palestine conflict is such a daily thing, noone even remembres it's happening anymore (except the people who die.. well, the people who lose friends and relatives due to it). And now... instead of angry stares and maybe some basic sanctions, the european economy is getting fucked, we're at the brink of WW3, the german minister directly said that "we're at war with russia", energy prices are skyrocketing, industry is closing down, a food crisis is coming, and instead of a few dead and some destroyed vehicles, we're in six-digit numbers not even couting the wounded. Someone also destroyed the nord stream, it wasn't the russians, and somehow the media has forgotten about that.. the politicians either don't know and don't care who did it (very bad), or know and don't want to tell their people (even worse). And the "normal people" get fucked the most, as always. Europe could have let putin have this and instead build an inpenetrable defensive wall at the eastern eu border as a response to that... but instead, we're at the brink of WW3. On the other hand, we're sending weapons and replacing them with new ones, we cannot afford... mostly from americans, buying gas at too-high prices... from americans, and getting deindustrialized and demilitarized in turn.
- ztrww 4y ago
  > ukraine is just another afghanistan mixed with cuba No it’s not. > inpenetrable defensive wall modern conflicts don’t work that way. This was already useless as a deterrence prior to WW2 (a wall and having Germany have Czechoslovakia did sure protect France from an invasion didn’t it?) > food crisis sure.. let’s just spam random nonsense

sofixa 4y ago

> Somehow people around here in the balkans have been getting the feeling that pretty much every thing every EU country did in the last year, has been favorable to US and detrimental to european citizens... Be it Scholz, Macron, ursula, etc. Whatever move they do, people of europe lose, and US gains something. Considering the last year includes the announcement of the Digital Markets and Services Acts, which will heavy hurt big oligopolistic companies by forcing them to be interoperable, and most of those are American, that's a weird take and the only explanation i can find is shitty media consumption blaming the US for Russia's invasion of Ukraine.

ur-whale 4y ago
>Considering the last year includes the announcement of the Digital Markets and Services Acts, which will heavy hurt big oligopolistic companies You're conflating the interests of a bunch of - maybe large but overall not that important - US corporations and the geopolitical interests of US as a nation. These simply aren't on the same scale. Things like the Digital Markets and Services Acts are at most mild irritants to the US. They're also useful in the sense that they allow the EU to believe they're still in control of their destiny. War-in-Ukraine level geopolitical events are what ultimately matter to the US as a country, not things that make Google grumpy.
- actionfromafar 4y ago
  Are you saying the US started the war in the Ukraine? Or what are you insinuating?