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> France has a protectionist mindset when it comes to critical industries (e.g. energy generation, shipbuilding, semiconductors) Between the power cuts due to

by csdvrx 4y ago

> France has a protectionist mindset when it comes to critical industries (e.g. energy generation, shipbuilding, semiconductors) Between the power cuts due to the planned lack of maintenance of their nuclear reactions, and the loss of various contracts and shipyards, I'd have though they'd have learned the lesson. But now, it now time for the ritual sacrifice of this last critical industry > blatant protectionism. Which should be illegal.

bobkazamakis 4y ago
Lmao? If Putin offered every man woman and child 1 million for their gun, you'd still be calling it a free market.
- DiggyJohnson 4y ago
  I genuinely can’t make sense of this comment or how it connects to GP’s, whether you agree or disagree with GP’s statement or not.
elcomet 4y ago
There have been no power cuts in France
Georgelemental 4y ago
Pretty much every advanced economy has used protectionist policies to develop at some point in their history. And all of them have also used free trade policies. There is no sacred dogma here, every trade arrangement has tradeoffs and every situation is unique.
- olalonde 4y ago
  Sounds like the "argument from middle ground" fallacy. Another perspective is that advanced economies have advanced in spite of the occasional misguided protectionist policy. Economics is not a hard science but the empirical evidence in favor of protectionism is very lacking.
  - deleted 4y ago
    [deleted]
  - marmetio 4y ago
    Anti-protectionism doesn't really apply when an adversarial country with no interest in a free market tries to seize a critical industry.
    - zx8080 4y ago
      There is always a competitor. Except if one is the winner who already took it all.
      - marmetio 4y ago
        I have no idea what you're saying.
  - Georgelemental 4y ago
    A hypothetical example: you are the Supreme Leader of Slevobistan, and you want to make your domestic widget industry as strong as possible. Your rival nation Flerovia has a well-developed industry making low cost, high quality widgets with economies of scale. Case A: Slevobistan is starting from scratch, has no domestic widget production whatsoever. In this case, if you fully open your market up to Flerovia, you will never get any on-shore widget industry! Startup domestic producers will be out-competed by the experienced Flerovian widget empires. Protectionist policies will make it harder for you to get cheap high-quality widgets in the short term, but they are necessary to build up your widget industry in the long term. Case B: Slevobistan already has an advanced widget industry, and you want to preserve it. In this case, protectionist policies, by insulating your industry from competition, could allow it to fall behind and decline. Free trade will ensure continued competition, pushing your widget industry to innovate and improve. As for empirical evidence, the historical record shows many examples of countries using protectionism to get ahead. For example USA (Civil War was in part over protectionism vs free trade, protectionist Northern industry won), Asian tigers, China…
ur-whale 4y ago
> Which should be illegal. It's a sovereign nation (still, in spite of the EU's efforts to the contrary). Therefore legal / illegal is whatever the f*k they decide.
- xwolfi 4y ago
  Im a French citizen and I'm inclined to agree we shouldn't be too protectionist, at all level of society: we should not protect jobs when a company is failing, we should not protect companies when a foreign one is gaining market shares, we should not nationalize something the Chinese are ready to subsidize. We are not going to be treated in any special way by the adversaries of China, and there are ways for us to benefit from a more relaxed relationship with them, at the detriment of the US: it makes the US care more about us, it makes China think less about screwing us, it makes us infiltrate both deeper. I think, as a small country, our best bet is to look entirely harmless while selling to every sides. End of the day nobody really wants to take us over because we're impossible to govern for a profit, so even if we fuck it up and China gains control of something we would have wanted for ourselves, we can just take it back after the fact and ask "so what, you want to invade us to deal with the people we cant even manage ourselves?". Honestly the best strategy for Taiwan too: be as insufferable and costly as possible so that even a successful take over just dump cost on the taker to convince them instead to keep a status quo where they just speak loudly waving their arms in patriotic excitement.
  - ajsnigrutin 4y ago
    > at the detriment of the US Somehow people around here in the balkans have been getting the feeling that pretty much every thing every EU country did in the last year, has been favorable to US and detrimental to european citizens... Be it Scholz, Macron, ursula, etc. Whatever move they do, people of europe lose, and US gains something.
    - Baeocystin 4y ago
      Why? Can you give examples? Honest question, not arguing. I live in California, and don't have much contact with the zeitgeist of the Balkans/Europe in general.
it_citizen 4y ago
This is a very strange take. 1) There was no power cut back in France 2) It is largely admitted that the power sector in France was way better off before Europe got involved and forced to privatized some activities. Some go even further: Henri Proglio (former CEO of EDF) recently said during a senate commission that Germans were really hell bent on crippling EDF, and succeeded.
- Georgelemental 4y ago
  France was getting along just fine with publicly-owned EDF, but then the EU came along and decided we needed to privatize. Except that we can't actually expose consumers to volatile market prices, so the result is a Frankenstein abomination that gets all the downsides of the private sector with none of the upsides. Kind of like US healthcare
  - nhchris 4y ago
    > but then the EU came along and decided we needed to privatize There'd be a lot less anti-EU sentiment if there was a bright line against meddling with what should be internal affairs of sovereign states, instead of growing like a cancer until everything is under its purview, and national governments are just for show.
    - sofixa 4y ago
      > There'd be a lot less anti-EU sentiment if there was a bright line against meddling with what should be internal affairs of sovereign states GDPR, DMA and DSA, the Covid recovery funds, Schengen, Erasmsus. Just those massive things off the top of my head compensate the EU's normalisation across Europe in certain markets, which has had it's successes (in the making) like separating rail operations from infrastructure thus allowing competition, and non successes like the common European energy market which has plenty of good ideas on paper, but when faced with a massive energy crisis due to extreme external factors is terrible.
      - actionfromafar 4y ago
Kuinox 4y ago
> Between the power cuts due to the planned lack of maintenance of their nuclear reactions, and the loss of various contracts and shipyards, I'd have though they'd have learned the lesson I suggest you to read more diverse news sources.

by csdvrx 4y ago

bobkazamakis 4y ago

Lmao? If Putin offered every man woman and child 1 million for their gun, you'd still be calling it a free market.

DiggyJohnson 4y ago
I genuinely can’t make sense of this comment or how it connects to GP’s, whether you agree or disagree with GP’s statement or not.

elcomet 4y ago

There have been no power cuts in France

Georgelemental 4y ago

Pretty much every advanced economy has used protectionist policies to develop at some point in their history. And all of them have also used free trade policies. There is no sacred dogma here, every trade arrangement has tradeoffs and every situation is unique.

olalonde 4y ago
Sounds like the "argument from middle ground" fallacy. Another perspective is that advanced economies have advanced in spite of the occasional misguided protectionist policy. Economics is not a hard science but the empirical evidence in favor of protectionism is very lacking.
- deleted 4y ago
  [deleted]
- marmetio 4y ago
  Anti-protectionism doesn't really apply when an adversarial country with no interest in a free market tries to seize a critical industry.
  - zx8080 4y ago
    There is always a competitor. Except if one is the winner who already took it all.
    - marmetio 4y ago
      I have no idea what you're saying.
- Georgelemental 4y ago
  A hypothetical example: you are the Supreme Leader of Slevobistan, and you want to make your domestic widget industry as strong as possible. Your rival nation Flerovia has a well-developed industry making low cost, high quality widgets with economies of scale. Case A: Slevobistan is starting from scratch, has no domestic widget production whatsoever. In this case, if you fully open your market up to Flerovia, you will never get any on-shore widget industry! Startup domestic producers will be out-competed by the experienced Flerovian widget empires. Protectionist policies will make it harder for you to get cheap high-quality widgets in the short term, but they are necessary to build up your widget industry in the long term. Case B: Slevobistan already has an advanced widget industry, and you want to preserve it. In this case, protectionist policies, by insulating your industry from competition, could allow it to fall behind and decline. Free trade will ensure continued competition, pushing your widget industry to innovate and improve. As for empirical evidence, the historical record shows many examples of countries using protectionism to get ahead. For example USA (Civil War was in part over protectionism vs free trade, protectionist Northern industry won), Asian tigers, China…

ur-whale 4y ago

> Which should be illegal. It's a sovereign nation (still, in spite of the EU's efforts to the contrary). Therefore legal / illegal is whatever the f*k they decide.

xwolfi 4y ago
Im a French citizen and I'm inclined to agree we shouldn't be too protectionist, at all level of society: we should not protect jobs when a company is failing, we should not protect companies when a foreign one is gaining market shares, we should not nationalize something the Chinese are ready to subsidize. We are not going to be treated in any special way by the adversaries of China, and there are ways for us to benefit from a more relaxed relationship with them, at the detriment of the US: it makes the US care more about us, it makes China think less about screwing us, it makes us infiltrate both deeper. I think, as a small country, our best bet is to look entirely harmless while selling to every sides. End of the day nobody really wants to take us over because we're impossible to govern for a profit, so even if we fuck it up and China gains control of something we would have wanted for ourselves, we can just take it back after the fact and ask "so what, you want to invade us to deal with the people we cant even manage ourselves?". Honestly the best strategy for Taiwan too: be as insufferable and costly as possible so that even a successful take over just dump cost on the taker to convince them instead to keep a status quo where they just speak loudly waving their arms in patriotic excitement.
- ajsnigrutin 4y ago
  > at the detriment of the US Somehow people around here in the balkans have been getting the feeling that pretty much every thing every EU country did in the last year, has been favorable to US and detrimental to european citizens... Be it Scholz, Macron, ursula, etc. Whatever move they do, people of europe lose, and US gains something.
  - Baeocystin 4y ago
    Why? Can you give examples? Honest question, not arguing. I live in California, and don't have much contact with the zeitgeist of the Balkans/Europe in general.

it_citizen 4y ago

This is a very strange take. 1) There was no power cut back in France 2) It is largely admitted that the power sector in France was way better off before Europe got involved and forced to privatized some activities. Some go even further: Henri Proglio (former CEO of EDF) recently said during a senate commission that Germans were really hell bent on crippling EDF, and succeeded.

Georgelemental 4y ago
France was getting along just fine with publicly-owned EDF, but then the EU came along and decided we needed to privatize. Except that we can't actually expose consumers to volatile market prices, so the result is a Frankenstein abomination that gets all the downsides of the private sector with none of the upsides. Kind of like US healthcare
- nhchris 4y ago
  > but then the EU came along and decided we needed to privatize There'd be a lot less anti-EU sentiment if there was a bright line against meddling with what should be internal affairs of sovereign states, instead of growing like a cancer until everything is under its purview, and national governments are just for show.
  - sofixa 4y ago
    > There'd be a lot less anti-EU sentiment if there was a bright line against meddling with what should be internal affairs of sovereign states GDPR, DMA and DSA, the Covid recovery funds, Schengen, Erasmsus. Just those massive things off the top of my head compensate the EU's normalisation across Europe in certain markets, which has had it's successes (in the making) like separating rail operations from infrastructure thus allowing competition, and non successes like the common European energy market which has plenty of good ideas on paper, but when faced with a massive energy crisis due to extreme external factors is terrible.
    - actionfromafar 4y ago

Kuinox 4y ago

> Between the power cuts due to the planned lack of maintenance of their nuclear reactions, and the loss of various contracts and shipyards, I'd have though they'd have learned the lesson I suggest you to read more diverse news sources.