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1 - Same as a CNG or LPG station 2 - Same as a CNG or LPG station 3 - Either via pipelines or tanker trucks. The former is cheaper, although for more remote s

by _hypx 4y ago

1 - Same as a CNG or LPG station 2 - Same as a CNG or LPG station 3 - Either via pipelines or tanker trucks. The former is cheaper, although for more remote stations the latter is more practical 4 - Yes 5 - Same as a CNG or LPG station 6 - Here is an example: https://www.press.bmwgroup.com/global/article/detail/T0371813EN/co2-free-driving-pleasure-in-all-weather-conditions:-the-bmw-ix5-hydrogen-in-final-winter-testing-close-to-the-arctic-circle?language=en https://www.press.bmwgroup.com/global/article/detail/T037181...

theshrike79 4y ago
1. Actual numbers and sources please? I'm not convinced that hydrogen storage has the same costs as CNG/LPG, it's a very different gas to store. 2. Actual numbers and sources please? 3. Who will construct and pay for these pipelines, since you can't use CNG/LPG pipes for hydrogen? 4. Actual sources please? 5. https://www.hydrogeninsight.com/transport/german-city-to-retire-its-one-year-old-hydrogen-fuel-cell-buses-after-2-3m-filling-station-breaks-down/2-1-1375568 https://www.hydrogeninsight.com/transport/german-city-to-ret... and https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2022-10-19/shell-closes-uk-hydrogen-filling-stations-as-evs-dominate https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2022-10-19/shell-clo... 6. Ahh yes, BMW press release about BMW testing a BMW car themselves. Totally neutral and unbiased. Toyota had the same thing, they preheated the car before each run because fuel cells really don't like freezing.
- _hypx 4y ago
  Hydrogen works nearly exactly like CNG. People have created fantasy stories as if it was the blood from Xenomorphs. In reality, it's corrosiveness is pretty underwhelming. Actual issues related to corrosion or hydrogen embrittlement only happens after decades of exposure or in specific situations. As long as you avoid these specific scenarios and do proper maintenance, you do not have a problem. For instance, hydrogen can be made to flow through natural gas pipelines with only minor modifications: https://assets.siemens-energy.com/siemens/assets/api/uuid:3d4339dc-434e-4692-81a0-a55adbcaa92e/200915-whitepaper-h2-infrastructure-en.pdf?ste_sid=94d6fa2f436145177f5433c7969ec17c https://assets.siemens-energy.com/siemens/assets/api/uuid:3d... It can be extrapolated that fuel cell cars will similar in most aspects to CNG and LPG powered cars which also have to deal with pressurized gases. A lot of the anti-hydrogen articles are paid marketing from competing technologies. They are basically not stories at all. FUD is more accurate. > Ahh yes, BMW press release about BMW testing a BMW car themselves. Totally neutral and unbiased. Toyota had the same thing, they preheated the car before each run because fuel cells really don't like freezing. Considering that they are actually selling these cars, they are not going to lie about real world performance. Independent testing have found fuel cells to work better than batteries in cold weather: https://www.sustainable-bus.com/news/the-effect-of-cold-weather-on-electric-bus-range-fuel-cell-wins-a-study-by-cte/ https://www.sustainable-bus.com/news/the-effect-of-cold-weat...
  - theshrike79 4y ago
    Fuel cells do work better if "work better" == less range lost due to cold weather. Hydrogen doesn't care about weather at all, Batteries do. But what I'm worried here is what happens if I park my Hydrogen powered BMW next to my ski holiday cabin in -30C weather for a week, will it still work after that? Does it keep the fuel cell above freezing at all times somehow? Or can it dump the produced water out of the cell so it freezing and expanding doesn't break anything?
    - _hypx 4y ago
      At -30°C many cars won't start. This is an extreme situation. But it does seem like the Mirai should be able to start: https://insideevs.com/reviews/460274/2021-toyota-mirai-test-drive-review/ https://insideevs.com/reviews/460274/2021-toyota-mirai-test-...
      - theshrike79 4y ago
        Many cars will start. Gasoline engines will start if the engine is in good order and the 12V battery has enough juice to crank the engine to get a proper spark. Diesels will have some issues because the oil is too thick when frozen, but if the 12V battery is in good shape you'll usually make it. You do need to run it for a good while to warm everything up before actually moving. A hybrid (non-PHEV) Prius will start like it's a summer's day. It uses the drive battery + engine as a starter motor, so it'll just go. The oil in Priuses is so thin it doesn't really change viscosity due to weather that much. EVs have zero issues. Step in, push button and it'll take about 4-5 minutes for it to be nice and warm inside without any preheating. Sauce: have started all in -30 to -35 weather every winter. I'm actually excited for the biggest motoring magazine over here to do their winter test on a Hydrogen car. They don't pull punches for anyone - Teslas for example have huge issues with heating during extreme colds, some valve in the engine freezes over and the heat never gets in the cabin.
        _hypx 4y ago
        A hydrogen car should also start too. I am just pointing out that this is a hit or miss thing at -30°C.

by _hypx 4y ago

theshrike79 4y ago

1. Actual numbers and sources please? I'm not convinced that hydrogen storage has the same costs as CNG/LPG, it's a very different gas to store. 2. Actual numbers and sources please? 3. Who will construct and pay for these pipelines, since you can't use CNG/LPG pipes for hydrogen? 4. Actual sources please? 5. https://www.hydrogeninsight.com/transport/german-city-to-retire-its-one-year-old-hydrogen-fuel-cell-buses-after-2-3m-filling-station-breaks-down/2-1-1375568 https://www.hydrogeninsight.com/transport/german-city-to-ret... and https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2022-10-19/shell-closes-uk-hydrogen-filling-stations-as-evs-dominate https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2022-10-19/shell-clo... 6. Ahh yes, BMW press release about BMW testing a BMW car themselves. Totally neutral and unbiased. Toyota had the same thing, they preheated the car before each run because fuel cells really don't like freezing.

_hypx 4y ago
Hydrogen works nearly exactly like CNG. People have created fantasy stories as if it was the blood from Xenomorphs. In reality, it's corrosiveness is pretty underwhelming. Actual issues related to corrosion or hydrogen embrittlement only happens after decades of exposure or in specific situations. As long as you avoid these specific scenarios and do proper maintenance, you do not have a problem. For instance, hydrogen can be made to flow through natural gas pipelines with only minor modifications: https://assets.siemens-energy.com/siemens/assets/api/uuid:3d4339dc-434e-4692-81a0-a55adbcaa92e/200915-whitepaper-h2-infrastructure-en.pdf?ste_sid=94d6fa2f436145177f5433c7969ec17c https://assets.siemens-energy.com/siemens/assets/api/uuid:3d... It can be extrapolated that fuel cell cars will similar in most aspects to CNG and LPG powered cars which also have to deal with pressurized gases. A lot of the anti-hydrogen articles are paid marketing from competing technologies. They are basically not stories at all. FUD is more accurate. > Ahh yes, BMW press release about BMW testing a BMW car themselves. Totally neutral and unbiased. Toyota had the same thing, they preheated the car before each run because fuel cells really don't like freezing. Considering that they are actually selling these cars, they are not going to lie about real world performance. Independent testing have found fuel cells to work better than batteries in cold weather: https://www.sustainable-bus.com/news/the-effect-of-cold-weather-on-electric-bus-range-fuel-cell-wins-a-study-by-cte/ https://www.sustainable-bus.com/news/the-effect-of-cold-weat...
- theshrike79 4y ago
  Fuel cells do work better if "work better" == less range lost due to cold weather. Hydrogen doesn't care about weather at all, Batteries do. But what I'm worried here is what happens if I park my Hydrogen powered BMW next to my ski holiday cabin in -30C weather for a week, will it still work after that? Does it keep the fuel cell above freezing at all times somehow? Or can it dump the produced water out of the cell so it freezing and expanding doesn't break anything?
  - _hypx 4y ago
    At -30°C many cars won't start. This is an extreme situation. But it does seem like the Mirai should be able to start: https://insideevs.com/reviews/460274/2021-toyota-mirai-test-drive-review/ https://insideevs.com/reviews/460274/2021-toyota-mirai-test-...
    - theshrike79 4y ago
      Many cars will start. Gasoline engines will start if the engine is in good order and the 12V battery has enough juice to crank the engine to get a proper spark. Diesels will have some issues because the oil is too thick when frozen, but if the 12V battery is in good shape you'll usually make it. You do need to run it for a good while to warm everything up before actually moving. A hybrid (non-PHEV) Prius will start like it's a summer's day. It uses the drive battery + engine as a starter motor, so it'll just go. The oil in Priuses is so thin it doesn't really change viscosity due to weather that much. EVs have zero issues. Step in, push button and it'll take about 4-5 minutes for it to be nice and warm inside without any preheating. Sauce: have started all in -30 to -35 weather every winter. I'm actually excited for the biggest motoring magazine over here to do their winter test on a Hydrogen car. They don't pull punches for anyone - Teslas for example have huge issues with heating during extreme colds, some valve in the engine freezes over and the heat never gets in the cabin.
      - _hypx 4y ago
        A hydrogen car should also start too. I am just pointing out that this is a hit or miss thing at -30°C.