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> strong explicit typing/high ceremony If you think strong typing is "ceremony" then you probably spend most of your time writing (and documenting) code and no

by smt88 4y ago

> strong explicit typing/high ceremony If you think strong typing is "ceremony" then you probably spend most of your time writing (and documenting) code and not reading, refactoring, or collaborating on it. The time people spend writing unnecessary, buggy unit tests (that static analysis can do in better languages) is far greater than the time to just use the type system. Most languages don't even force you to be explicit anymore. They infer the types, so you don't even write extra code. You just get better errors and speed.

josephg 4y ago
For what it’s worth, I agree with the GP comment when it comes to network services and for quickly prototyping things out. I’ve been writing in rust almost exclusively for the last few years, but I still reach for typescript from time to time. JS/TS just requires fewer decisions per line of code. As a pithy example, in javascript I don’t have to decide whether I want a String / &str / SmartString / Rc<String>, etc. It’s just string. When I pass a callback I don’t have to decide between accepting a closure or FnOnce/Fn/FnMut. Or decide whether to accept a function pointer or take a generic parameter. In javascript I never have to think about the lifetime of the callee’s stack. I tried to implement my own server-sent events style protocol in rust a couple years ago. I spent 2 weeks trying a bunch of different approaches but I eventually gave up - I just couldn’t get it working. (Mind you, async was pretty new then - I don’t think it was ready). I moved to javascript and had the whole thing working correctly in about a day and ~50 lines of simple code. I think the resulting program is much better when I write it in rust than what I get when I build on top of nodejs. Rust programs can be orders of magnitude faster and I have a shockingly low defect rate in shipped rust code. But there’s a trade off. Rust programs take more effort to write. Rust is a brilliant systems programming language. I’d pick it over C or C++ any day of the week. But not all problems are systems programming problems.
- zozbot234 4y ago
  Rust programs take more effort to write initially, but less effort throughout the software lifecycle. Unless you're writing code just to throw it away and not even run it once (which practically doesn't ever happen, at least not intentionally) Rust front-loading the effort is the right trade off. Never mind that some of these choices you can just avoid by thinking in general terms and deferring optimization for later. Just passing String and FnMut everywhere will be a lot more efficient than whatever the JS translates to on the machine.
  - josephg 4y ago
    Huh? Rust is better if I ever run my program even once? Even when it takes significantly more effort to write? Hard disagree on that. > Just passing String and FnMut everywhere will be a lot more efficient than whatever the JS translates to on the machine. I can’t comment on the performance of FnMut, but I’ve seen rust code run slower than the equivalent javascript because the rust code in question allocates everywhere without thinking about it (via Vec, String and Box). In my mind, javascript and friends are good languages to build things fast. Rust is a good language to build things right. For plenty of software (eg websites), good enough is good enough.
adamddev1 4y ago
> The time people spend writing unnecessary, buggy unit tests (that static analysis can do in better languages) is far greater than the time to just use the type system. Absolutely. Thank you for speaking truth.

by smt88 4y ago

josephg 4y ago

For what it’s worth, I agree with the GP comment when it comes to network services and for quickly prototyping things out. I’ve been writing in rust almost exclusively for the last few years, but I still reach for typescript from time to time. JS/TS just requires fewer decisions per line of code. As a pithy example, in javascript I don’t have to decide whether I want a String / &str / SmartString / Rc<String>, etc. It’s just string. When I pass a callback I don’t have to decide between accepting a closure or FnOnce/Fn/FnMut. Or decide whether to accept a function pointer or take a generic parameter. In javascript I never have to think about the lifetime of the callee’s stack. I tried to implement my own server-sent events style protocol in rust a couple years ago. I spent 2 weeks trying a bunch of different approaches but I eventually gave up - I just couldn’t get it working. (Mind you, async was pretty new then - I don’t think it was ready). I moved to javascript and had the whole thing working correctly in about a day and ~50 lines of simple code. I think the resulting program is much better when I write it in rust than what I get when I build on top of nodejs. Rust programs can be orders of magnitude faster and I have a shockingly low defect rate in shipped rust code. But there’s a trade off. Rust programs take more effort to write. Rust is a brilliant systems programming language. I’d pick it over C or C++ any day of the week. But not all problems are systems programming problems.

zozbot234 4y ago
Rust programs take more effort to write initially, but less effort throughout the software lifecycle. Unless you're writing code just to throw it away and not even run it once (which practically doesn't ever happen, at least not intentionally) Rust front-loading the effort is the right trade off. Never mind that some of these choices you can just avoid by thinking in general terms and deferring optimization for later. Just passing String and FnMut everywhere will be a lot more efficient than whatever the JS translates to on the machine.
- josephg 4y ago
  Huh? Rust is better if I ever run my program even once? Even when it takes significantly more effort to write? Hard disagree on that. > Just passing String and FnMut everywhere will be a lot more efficient than whatever the JS translates to on the machine. I can’t comment on the performance of FnMut, but I’ve seen rust code run slower than the equivalent javascript because the rust code in question allocates everywhere without thinking about it (via Vec, String and Box). In my mind, javascript and friends are good languages to build things fast. Rust is a good language to build things right. For plenty of software (eg websites), good enough is good enough.

adamddev1 4y ago

> The time people spend writing unnecessary, buggy unit tests (that static analysis can do in better languages) is far greater than the time to just use the type system. Absolutely. Thank you for speaking truth.