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You do realize that hydrogen has an effective energy density of ~1,000 Wh/kg? Even with the weight of tanks and fuel cells taken into account. Meanwhile, most o

by _hypx 4y ago

You do realize that hydrogen has an effective energy density of ~1,000 Wh/kg? Even with the weight of tanks and fuel cells taken into account. Meanwhile, most of your listed battery chemistries haven’t been invented yet and may never exist.

AtlasBarfed 4y ago
Speaking of not existing: All the hydrogen generation/splitting facilities (it all comes from methane, right oil company astroturfer?) I forget, did you guys fix the various fundamental laws of thermodynamics so that you can get hydrogen from water at high efficiency? You know, water, that ultra-stable molecule? Or should we just ship the electricity over the existing grid rather than take 30-50% losses putting it into hydrogen, physically ship it with some new fangled hydrogen tank truck, and then get the energy out? So how much energy do you use to GET to that 1000 wh/kg? Oh right, you'll really just get it from methane or tar sands or fracking or whatever. Right oil company executive. All the hydrogen transport infrastructure. Does hydrogen like being in tanks? I forget. Does it basically leak from everything? Hydrogen is really stable, right? All the hydrogen refuelling stations. Wait, is hydrogen a liquid? Oh, it's a gas? man, those'll be annoying to engineer. Right, bet that's a solved problem for Joe Q public. All the fuel cells that last longer than 100,000 miles. I forget, did you fix that little platinum problem? Right, solved problem. Here's the real kicker: what price are you targeting with hydrogen cars and infrastructure? It'll take, what, 10 years to get close to what the electrical grid and current recharging stations offer? I mean, we have EVs like NOW. Lots of them. Hyuuuuge factories. Does the "hydrogen economy" exist yet? Right, only if you use methane? Gotcha oil company dude. I forget, can I slap some solar panels on my roof (especially those perovskite multijuntion ones that I hope come out in a few years) and directly use that to generate hydrogen for my hydrogen car? Oh, is that a bad idea? I should just use an EV? Don't get me wrong, hydrogen has potential to be useful. Medium/long range aviation, really long haul shipping, really long haul trucking. You know, edge cases. You know, unless synth fuels become a thing. So just to reiterate: 1) you have no factories for a mass production car 2) you have no green production of hydrogen 3) you have no transportation infrastructure 4) you have no pumps/refueling 5) it'll take, what 10-20 years to get to where EVs are right now? While EVs: 1) have factories / in production 2) can use any generation source, just hook it to the grid. 3) transportation? You mean the grid? Or generation at home? 4) recharging stations, while yeah, not what gas stations are, they exist and are actively being built out 5) and just to reiterate, there's been production EVs for... 15 years now? Your little hydrogen bus system in Japan? I almost guarantee that gets chucked once cheap EV buses hit the mainstream (they don't need to go far, they do lots of stop-go so regen, it would be really nice to charge them off the grid, they will be cheap/in mass production). I mean, if you're a city, would you like supported / non-bespoke cheaper-than-ICE buses with low maintenance cost, cheap repair, or some screwy hydrogen thing? Yeah.
- theshrike79 4y ago
  > All the fuel cells that last longer than 100,000 miles. Fuel cell age is measured in hours, not miles. Every second your car is powered, the fuel cell is expiring.
- _hypx 4y ago
  Industrial scale electrolyzers exist now and are being deployed. The rest of the your post is just attacking strawmen. None of those problems exist at the scale that you think they exist. For instance, fuel cells are already lasting tens of thousands of hours, so they are well past being durable enough for cars or other vehicles. We are also not discussing the viability of EVs and hydrogen cars right now, but what will happen in the future. After all, the start of this conversation is about Toyota somehow missing the boat on EVs. But people are forgetting that EVs are not the final step in the evolution of cars. In reality, people are just repeating similar claims against hydrogen vehicles as people in the past have against EVs. The problem is that EVs have their own fundamental weaknesses that will probably never be solved. Those weaknesses will eventually require an alternative, of which the most likely is hydrogen. In that case then, Toyota is not missing out on anything.
  - theshrike79 4y ago
    _Static_ fuel cells are lasting tens of thousands of hours. The big ones you use at factories. The Toyota Mirai, which is the crown jewel hydrogen vehicle at the moment, has only 5000 hour life span on its fuel cell. You'd think they'd install one of those tens of thousands of hours one in it if they could?
    - _hypx 4y ago
      5000 hours * 50 mph is 250,000 miles. That's plenty.
      - theshrike79 4y ago
        The hours start running from the second you start the car. You're not gunning it at 50mph for the full 5000 hours.

by _hypx 4y ago

AtlasBarfed 4y ago

Speaking of not existing: All the hydrogen generation/splitting facilities (it all comes from methane, right oil company astroturfer?) I forget, did you guys fix the various fundamental laws of thermodynamics so that you can get hydrogen from water at high efficiency? You know, water, that ultra-stable molecule? Or should we just ship the electricity over the existing grid rather than take 30-50% losses putting it into hydrogen, physically ship it with some new fangled hydrogen tank truck, and then get the energy out? So how much energy do you use to GET to that 1000 wh/kg? Oh right, you'll really just get it from methane or tar sands or fracking or whatever. Right oil company executive. All the hydrogen transport infrastructure. Does hydrogen like being in tanks? I forget. Does it basically leak from everything? Hydrogen is really stable, right? All the hydrogen refuelling stations. Wait, is hydrogen a liquid? Oh, it's a gas? man, those'll be annoying to engineer. Right, bet that's a solved problem for Joe Q public. All the fuel cells that last longer than 100,000 miles. I forget, did you fix that little platinum problem? Right, solved problem. Here's the real kicker: what price are you targeting with hydrogen cars and infrastructure? It'll take, what, 10 years to get close to what the electrical grid and current recharging stations offer? I mean, we have EVs like NOW. Lots of them. Hyuuuuge factories. Does the "hydrogen economy" exist yet? Right, only if you use methane? Gotcha oil company dude. I forget, can I slap some solar panels on my roof (especially those perovskite multijuntion ones that I hope come out in a few years) and directly use that to generate hydrogen for my hydrogen car? Oh, is that a bad idea? I should just use an EV? Don't get me wrong, hydrogen has potential to be useful. Medium/long range aviation, really long haul shipping, really long haul trucking. You know, edge cases. You know, unless synth fuels become a thing. So just to reiterate: 1) you have no factories for a mass production car 2) you have no green production of hydrogen 3) you have no transportation infrastructure 4) you have no pumps/refueling 5) it'll take, what 10-20 years to get to where EVs are right now? While EVs: 1) have factories / in production 2) can use any generation source, just hook it to the grid. 3) transportation? You mean the grid? Or generation at home? 4) recharging stations, while yeah, not what gas stations are, they exist and are actively being built out 5) and just to reiterate, there's been production EVs for... 15 years now? Your little hydrogen bus system in Japan? I almost guarantee that gets chucked once cheap EV buses hit the mainstream (they don't need to go far, they do lots of stop-go so regen, it would be really nice to charge them off the grid, they will be cheap/in mass production). I mean, if you're a city, would you like supported / non-bespoke cheaper-than-ICE buses with low maintenance cost, cheap repair, or some screwy hydrogen thing? Yeah.

theshrike79 4y ago
> All the fuel cells that last longer than 100,000 miles. Fuel cell age is measured in hours, not miles. Every second your car is powered, the fuel cell is expiring.
_hypx 4y ago
Industrial scale electrolyzers exist now and are being deployed. The rest of the your post is just attacking strawmen. None of those problems exist at the scale that you think they exist. For instance, fuel cells are already lasting tens of thousands of hours, so they are well past being durable enough for cars or other vehicles. We are also not discussing the viability of EVs and hydrogen cars right now, but what will happen in the future. After all, the start of this conversation is about Toyota somehow missing the boat on EVs. But people are forgetting that EVs are not the final step in the evolution of cars. In reality, people are just repeating similar claims against hydrogen vehicles as people in the past have against EVs. The problem is that EVs have their own fundamental weaknesses that will probably never be solved. Those weaknesses will eventually require an alternative, of which the most likely is hydrogen. In that case then, Toyota is not missing out on anything.
- theshrike79 4y ago
  _Static_ fuel cells are lasting tens of thousands of hours. The big ones you use at factories. The Toyota Mirai, which is the crown jewel hydrogen vehicle at the moment, has only 5000 hour life span on its fuel cell. You'd think they'd install one of those tens of thousands of hours one in it if they could?
  - _hypx 4y ago
    5000 hours * 50 mph is 250,000 miles. That's plenty.
    - theshrike79 4y ago
      The hours start running from the second you start the car. You're not gunning it at 50mph for the full 5000 hours.