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The dizzying pace with which so many of our institutions—from the ACLU to basically all our our elite universities—have not only abandoned but energetically opp

The dizzying pace with which so many of our institutions—from the ACLU to basically all our our elite universities—have not only abandoned but energetically oppose their former principles, over just the past five years, is horrifying.

superorganism 4y ago
Can you give a concrete example?
- leephillips 4y ago
  If you don’t regard the article up top as a concrete example, I’m not sure I can convince you.
  - nextaccountic 4y ago
    Is this article related to the ACLU? ctrl+f aclu doesn't return anything
    - leephillips 4y ago
      I was replying to a request to supply an example of “so many [of] our institutions—from the ACLU to basically all of our elite universities”.
  - greedo 4y ago
    I don't see any mention of the ACLU in the article about Stanford...
- ctoth 4y ago
  here[0] are[1] some[2] examples. [0]: The ACLU Has Lost Its Way: https://www.theatlantic.com/ideas/archive/2022/05/aclu-johnny-depp-amber-heard-trial/629808/ https://www.theatlantic.com/ideas/archive/2022/05/aclu-johnn... [1]: Once a Bastion of Free Speech, the A.C.L.U. Faces an Identity Crisis: https://www.nytimes.com/2021/06/06/us/aclu-free-speech.html https://www.nytimes.com/2021/06/06/us/aclu-free-speech.html [2]: Requiem for the American Civil Liberties Union: https://www.newsweek.com/requiem-american-civil-liberties-union-opinion-1600579 https://www.newsweek.com/requiem-american-civil-liberties-un...
  - superorganism 4y ago
    Oh OK, so you want the ACLU to be a right wing org, got it.
  - woooooo 4y ago
    Actual memo from the horse's mouth: https://www.aclu.org/sites/default/files/field_document/aclu_case_selection_guidelines.pdf https://www.aclu.org/sites/default/files/field_document/aclu... Tldr: under the new policy, they consider impact of the speech to marginalized communities before deciding to defend. Presumably this would exclude Skokie IL nazis, in contrast with their past record. Credit to them for transparency by just publishing it after it was leaked.
JumpCrisscross 4y ago
> from the ACLU The ACLU has a track record of defending the rights of the unfavorable, even irredeemable. Are there examples that lump them in with this nonsense?
- tablespoon 4y ago
  > The ACLU has a track record of defending the rights of the unfavorable, even irredeemable. Are there examples that lump them in with this nonsense? This is just the first link that popped up, but they're starting to at least back away from their track record: https://reason.com/2020/12/20/would-the-aclu-still-defend-nazis-right-to-march-in-skokie/ https://reason.com/2020/12/20/would-the-aclu-still-defend-na... > Retired since 2001, [Former ACLU Executive Director Ira] Glasser says he's worried about the future of both free expression and the organizations that defend it. In 2018, a leaked ACLU memo offered guidelines for case selection that retreated from the group's decadeslong content-neutral stance, citing as a reason to decline a case "the extent to which the speech may assist in advancing the goals of white supremacists or others whose views are contrary to our values." Glasser fears that, by becoming more political and less absolutist when it comes to defending speech, the ACLU might be shrugging off its hard-won legacy.
- jimbob45 4y ago
  There's a nice article and discussion about the ACLU's sad decline at the below link. https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=31329247 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=31329247
- endominus 4y ago
  The Atlantic[0][1] has run a number of articles about the ACLU's changing values, and refusal to grapple critically with more authoritarian voices in the halls of power. There was also a New Republic article[2] discussing strife within the ACLU itself; "Finally, there are those within the ACLU who scoff at the First Amendment completely, arguing that it is “disproportionately enjoyed by people of power and privilege” and therefore, presumably, of little or no value to others. And Powell reports that some ACLU lawyers believe free speech (presumably meaning disagreement with the organization’s new direction) is now being suppressed within the organization itself." [0]: https://www.theatlantic.com/ideas/archive/2018/11/aclu-devos-title-ix/576142/ https://www.theatlantic.com/ideas/archive/2018/11/aclu-devos... [1]: https://www.theatlantic.com/ideas/archive/2022/05/aclu-johnny-depp-amber-heard-trial/629808/ https://www.theatlantic.com/ideas/archive/2022/05/aclu-johnn... [2]: https://newrepublic.com/article/163073/first-amendment-fire https://newrepublic.com/article/163073/first-amendment-fire

superorganism 4y ago

Can you give a concrete example?

leephillips 4y ago
If you don’t regard the article up top as a concrete example, I’m not sure I can convince you.
- nextaccountic 4y ago
  Is this article related to the ACLU? ctrl+f aclu doesn't return anything
  - leephillips 4y ago
    I was replying to a request to supply an example of “so many [of] our institutions—from the ACLU to basically all of our elite universities”.
- greedo 4y ago
  I don't see any mention of the ACLU in the article about Stanford...
ctoth 4y ago
here[0] are[1] some[2] examples. [0]: The ACLU Has Lost Its Way: https://www.theatlantic.com/ideas/archive/2022/05/aclu-johnny-depp-amber-heard-trial/629808/ https://www.theatlantic.com/ideas/archive/2022/05/aclu-johnn... [1]: Once a Bastion of Free Speech, the A.C.L.U. Faces an Identity Crisis: https://www.nytimes.com/2021/06/06/us/aclu-free-speech.html https://www.nytimes.com/2021/06/06/us/aclu-free-speech.html [2]: Requiem for the American Civil Liberties Union: https://www.newsweek.com/requiem-american-civil-liberties-union-opinion-1600579 https://www.newsweek.com/requiem-american-civil-liberties-un...
- superorganism 4y ago
  Oh OK, so you want the ACLU to be a right wing org, got it.
- woooooo 4y ago
  Actual memo from the horse's mouth: https://www.aclu.org/sites/default/files/field_document/aclu_case_selection_guidelines.pdf https://www.aclu.org/sites/default/files/field_document/aclu... Tldr: under the new policy, they consider impact of the speech to marginalized communities before deciding to defend. Presumably this would exclude Skokie IL nazis, in contrast with their past record. Credit to them for transparency by just publishing it after it was leaked.

JumpCrisscross 4y ago

> from the ACLU The ACLU has a track record of defending the rights of the unfavorable, even irredeemable. Are there examples that lump them in with this nonsense?

tablespoon 4y ago
> The ACLU has a track record of defending the rights of the unfavorable, even irredeemable. Are there examples that lump them in with this nonsense? This is just the first link that popped up, but they're starting to at least back away from their track record: https://reason.com/2020/12/20/would-the-aclu-still-defend-nazis-right-to-march-in-skokie/ https://reason.com/2020/12/20/would-the-aclu-still-defend-na... > Retired since 2001, [Former ACLU Executive Director Ira] Glasser says he's worried about the future of both free expression and the organizations that defend it. In 2018, a leaked ACLU memo offered guidelines for case selection that retreated from the group's decadeslong content-neutral stance, citing as a reason to decline a case "the extent to which the speech may assist in advancing the goals of white supremacists or others whose views are contrary to our values." Glasser fears that, by becoming more political and less absolutist when it comes to defending speech, the ACLU might be shrugging off its hard-won legacy.
jimbob45 4y ago
There's a nice article and discussion about the ACLU's sad decline at the below link. https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=31329247 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=31329247
endominus 4y ago
The Atlantic[0][1] has run a number of articles about the ACLU's changing values, and refusal to grapple critically with more authoritarian voices in the halls of power. There was also a New Republic article[2] discussing strife within the ACLU itself; "Finally, there are those within the ACLU who scoff at the First Amendment completely, arguing that it is “disproportionately enjoyed by people of power and privilege” and therefore, presumably, of little or no value to others. And Powell reports that some ACLU lawyers believe free speech (presumably meaning disagreement with the organization’s new direction) is now being suppressed within the organization itself." [0]: https://www.theatlantic.com/ideas/archive/2018/11/aclu-devos-title-ix/576142/ https://www.theatlantic.com/ideas/archive/2018/11/aclu-devos... [1]: https://www.theatlantic.com/ideas/archive/2022/05/aclu-johnny-depp-amber-heard-trial/629808/ https://www.theatlantic.com/ideas/archive/2022/05/aclu-johnn... [2]: https://newrepublic.com/article/163073/first-amendment-fire https://newrepublic.com/article/163073/first-amendment-fire