5 ms·

> asking them to “acknowledge” what they’ve done and “change” their ways through restorative justice-type exercises undoubtedly chills student speech. This pre

> asking them to “acknowledge” what they’ve done and “change” their ways through restorative justice-type exercises undoubtedly chills student speech. This precedes speech. This is the right to read. Stallman's essay [1] needs an update. But no books were burned so we're still the good guys, don't worry. [1] https://www.gnu.org/philosophy/right-to-read.html https://www.gnu.org/philosophy/right-to-read.html

leephillips 4y ago
The dizzying pace with which so many of our institutions—from the ACLU to basically all our our elite universities—have not only abandoned but energetically oppose their former principles, over just the past five years, is horrifying.
- superorganism 4y ago
  Can you give a concrete example?
  - leephillips 4y ago
    If you don’t regard the article up top as a concrete example, I’m not sure I can convince you.
    - nextaccountic 4y ago
      Is this article related to the ACLU? ctrl+f aclu doesn't return anything
      - leephillips 4y ago
        I was replying to a request to supply an example of “so many [of] our institutions—from the ACLU to basically all of our elite universities”.
    - greedo 4y ago
      I don't see any mention of the ACLU in the article about Stanford...
  - ctoth 4y ago
    here[0] are[1] some[2] examples. [0]: The ACLU Has Lost Its Way: https://www.theatlantic.com/ideas/archive/2022/05/aclu-johnny-depp-amber-heard-trial/629808/ https://www.theatlantic.com/ideas/archive/2022/05/aclu-johnn... [1]: Once a Bastion of Free Speech, the A.C.L.U. Faces an Identity Crisis: https://www.nytimes.com/2021/06/06/us/aclu-free-speech.html https://www.nytimes.com/2021/06/06/us/aclu-free-speech.html [2]: Requiem for the American Civil Liberties Union: https://www.newsweek.com/requiem-american-civil-liberties-union-opinion-1600579 https://www.newsweek.com/requiem-american-civil-liberties-un...
    - superorganism 4y ago
      Oh OK, so you want the ACLU to be a right wing org, got it.
    - woooooo 4y ago
      Actual memo from the horse's mouth: https://www.aclu.org/sites/default/files/field_document/aclu_case_selection_guidelines.pdf https://www.aclu.org/sites/default/files/field_document/aclu... Tldr: under the new policy, they consider impact of the speech to marginalized communities before deciding to defend. Presumably this would exclude Skokie IL nazis, in contrast with their past record. Credit to them for transparency by just publishing it after it was leaked.
- JumpCrisscross 4y ago
  > from the ACLU The ACLU has a track record of defending the rights of the unfavorable, even irredeemable. Are there examples that lump them in with this nonsense?
  - tablespoon 4y ago
    > The ACLU has a track record of defending the rights of the unfavorable, even irredeemable. Are there examples that lump them in with this nonsense? This is just the first link that popped up, but they're starting to at least back away from their track record: https://reason.com/2020/12/20/would-the-aclu-still-defend-nazis-right-to-march-in-skokie/ https://reason.com/2020/12/20/would-the-aclu-still-defend-na... > Retired since 2001, [Former ACLU Executive Director Ira] Glasser says he's worried about the future of both free expression and the organizations that defend it. In 2018, a leaked ACLU memo offered guidelines for case selection that retreated from the group's decadeslong content-neutral stance, citing as a reason to decline a case "the extent to which the speech may assist in advancing the goals of white supremacists or others whose views are contrary to our values." Glasser fears that, by becoming more political and less absolutist when it comes to defending speech, the ACLU might be shrugging off its hard-won legacy.
  - jimbob45 4y ago
    There's a nice article and discussion about the ACLU's sad decline at the below link. https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=31329247 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=31329247
  - endominus 4y ago
    The Atlantic[0][1] has run a number of articles about the ACLU's changing values, and refusal to grapple critically with more authoritarian voices in the halls of power. There was also a New Republic article[2] discussing strife within the ACLU itself; "Finally, there are those within the ACLU who scoff at the First Amendment completely, arguing that it is “disproportionately enjoyed by people of power and privilege” and therefore, presumably, of little or no value to others. And Powell reports that some ACLU lawyers believe free speech (presumably meaning disagreement with the organization’s new direction) is now being suppressed within the organization itself." [0]: https://www.theatlantic.com/ideas/archive/2018/11/aclu-devos-title-ix/576142/ https://www.theatlantic.com/ideas/archive/2018/11/aclu-devos... [1]: https://www.theatlantic.com/ideas/archive/2022/05/aclu-johnny-depp-amber-heard-trial/629808/ https://www.theatlantic.com/ideas/archive/2022/05/aclu-johnn... [2]: https://newrepublic.com/article/163073/first-amendment-fire https://newrepublic.com/article/163073/first-amendment-fire
Brybry 4y ago
But isn't this about someone posting an image to Snapchat? Not about reading a book? And without seeing the image in question, and the context of why it was shared, it's kind of hard to say what's going on.
- stronglikedan 4y ago
  It's easy to see what's going on. An image of a student reading a book should be a non-story, regardless of where it's posted. What's going on is pure buffoonery and shenanigans.
  - kube-system 4y ago
    This is overly reductionist. There are trivially imaginable contexts in which "an image of a student reading a book" can be harassing. Forget the book at all, sending someone "an image of a student" can be harassing depending on the unspoken details. Political activist groups love to use FERPA to their advantage, and I bet this is that.
- causi 4y ago
  But isn't this about someone posting an image to Snapchat? What does that matter? Why is a university trying to police how crass somebody is on social media? They didn't threaten or harass someone; they didn't call for genocide. They dared to...publicly make light of a historical atrocity? This is trending dangerously into "insufficient piety".

leephillips 4y ago

The dizzying pace with which so many of our institutions—from the ACLU to basically all our our elite universities—have not only abandoned but energetically oppose their former principles, over just the past five years, is horrifying.

superorganism 4y ago
Can you give a concrete example?
- leephillips 4y ago
  If you don’t regard the article up top as a concrete example, I’m not sure I can convince you.
  - nextaccountic 4y ago
    Is this article related to the ACLU? ctrl+f aclu doesn't return anything
    - leephillips 4y ago
      I was replying to a request to supply an example of “so many [of] our institutions—from the ACLU to basically all of our elite universities”.
  - greedo 4y ago
    I don't see any mention of the ACLU in the article about Stanford...
- ctoth 4y ago
  here[0] are[1] some[2] examples. [0]: The ACLU Has Lost Its Way: https://www.theatlantic.com/ideas/archive/2022/05/aclu-johnny-depp-amber-heard-trial/629808/ https://www.theatlantic.com/ideas/archive/2022/05/aclu-johnn... [1]: Once a Bastion of Free Speech, the A.C.L.U. Faces an Identity Crisis: https://www.nytimes.com/2021/06/06/us/aclu-free-speech.html https://www.nytimes.com/2021/06/06/us/aclu-free-speech.html [2]: Requiem for the American Civil Liberties Union: https://www.newsweek.com/requiem-american-civil-liberties-union-opinion-1600579 https://www.newsweek.com/requiem-american-civil-liberties-un...
  - superorganism 4y ago
    Oh OK, so you want the ACLU to be a right wing org, got it.
  - woooooo 4y ago
    Actual memo from the horse's mouth: https://www.aclu.org/sites/default/files/field_document/aclu_case_selection_guidelines.pdf https://www.aclu.org/sites/default/files/field_document/aclu... Tldr: under the new policy, they consider impact of the speech to marginalized communities before deciding to defend. Presumably this would exclude Skokie IL nazis, in contrast with their past record. Credit to them for transparency by just publishing it after it was leaked.
JumpCrisscross 4y ago
> from the ACLU The ACLU has a track record of defending the rights of the unfavorable, even irredeemable. Are there examples that lump them in with this nonsense?
- tablespoon 4y ago
  > The ACLU has a track record of defending the rights of the unfavorable, even irredeemable. Are there examples that lump them in with this nonsense? This is just the first link that popped up, but they're starting to at least back away from their track record: https://reason.com/2020/12/20/would-the-aclu-still-defend-nazis-right-to-march-in-skokie/ https://reason.com/2020/12/20/would-the-aclu-still-defend-na... > Retired since 2001, [Former ACLU Executive Director Ira] Glasser says he's worried about the future of both free expression and the organizations that defend it. In 2018, a leaked ACLU memo offered guidelines for case selection that retreated from the group's decadeslong content-neutral stance, citing as a reason to decline a case "the extent to which the speech may assist in advancing the goals of white supremacists or others whose views are contrary to our values." Glasser fears that, by becoming more political and less absolutist when it comes to defending speech, the ACLU might be shrugging off its hard-won legacy.
- jimbob45 4y ago
  There's a nice article and discussion about the ACLU's sad decline at the below link. https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=31329247 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=31329247
- endominus 4y ago
  The Atlantic[0][1] has run a number of articles about the ACLU's changing values, and refusal to grapple critically with more authoritarian voices in the halls of power. There was also a New Republic article[2] discussing strife within the ACLU itself; "Finally, there are those within the ACLU who scoff at the First Amendment completely, arguing that it is “disproportionately enjoyed by people of power and privilege” and therefore, presumably, of little or no value to others. And Powell reports that some ACLU lawyers believe free speech (presumably meaning disagreement with the organization’s new direction) is now being suppressed within the organization itself." [0]: https://www.theatlantic.com/ideas/archive/2018/11/aclu-devos-title-ix/576142/ https://www.theatlantic.com/ideas/archive/2018/11/aclu-devos... [1]: https://www.theatlantic.com/ideas/archive/2022/05/aclu-johnny-depp-amber-heard-trial/629808/ https://www.theatlantic.com/ideas/archive/2022/05/aclu-johnn... [2]: https://newrepublic.com/article/163073/first-amendment-fire https://newrepublic.com/article/163073/first-amendment-fire

Brybry 4y ago

But isn't this about someone posting an image to Snapchat? Not about reading a book? And without seeing the image in question, and the context of why it was shared, it's kind of hard to say what's going on.

stronglikedan 4y ago
It's easy to see what's going on. An image of a student reading a book should be a non-story, regardless of where it's posted. What's going on is pure buffoonery and shenanigans.
- kube-system 4y ago
  This is overly reductionist. There are trivially imaginable contexts in which "an image of a student reading a book" can be harassing. Forget the book at all, sending someone "an image of a student" can be harassing depending on the unspoken details. Political activist groups love to use FERPA to their advantage, and I bet this is that.
causi 4y ago
But isn't this about someone posting an image to Snapchat? What does that matter? Why is a university trying to police how crass somebody is on social media? They didn't threaten or harass someone; they didn't call for genocide. They dared to...publicly make light of a historical atrocity? This is trending dangerously into "insufficient piety".