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That has not been my experience. It's a difference in values. There are both men and women on both sides of the cultural divide. If anything, my experience is

That has not been my experience. It's a difference in values. There are both men and women on both sides of the cultural divide. If anything, my experience is that there are more women on my side. The stereotype that women value commitment might be exaggerated, but there seems to be at least a kernel of truth there.

kelseyfrog 4y ago
That's fine. I think we've reached the part of the conversation where we're bound by not having large-scale descriptive statistics that can convince the other. Either way, my experience is completely opposite. I can't recall a single woman I know who, that when meeting someone prescribing any of these points, would not use them as a proxy for their willingness to engage in a relationship and their subsequent happiness in such a relationship. Maybe we just live in separate bubbles, or maybe one of us does and one doesn't, or maybe they are geographic bubbles or context dependent in some other way that introduces nuance in a way that ends with "it depends." We probably won't know unless doing some sort of statistical survey.
- frognumber 4y ago
  I don't think we need large-scale statistics to convince each other of our mutual experiences. We just need to accept neither of us is speaking in bad faith. I don't know you, but I would speculate that you mostly interact with people from white, progressive, Western, middle-upper-class, educated, American culture, and that would be the experience there. There are 8 billion people in the world, though. I'm an immigrant and mostly interact with immigrants. The signalling is different. Divorce is bad for kids, and a lot of people in the world would like a spouse who is committed. A lot of women want someone who will commit to one relationship and work on it. I view marriage the same way as I do having a child, a parent, or any other family member; thick or thin, it not something you just opt out of unless something extreme happens. I do have one family member most of us disowned, but that was due to something rather extreme.

kelseyfrog 4y ago

That's fine. I think we've reached the part of the conversation where we're bound by not having large-scale descriptive statistics that can convince the other. Either way, my experience is completely opposite. I can't recall a single woman I know who, that when meeting someone prescribing any of these points, would not use them as a proxy for their willingness to engage in a relationship and their subsequent happiness in such a relationship. Maybe we just live in separate bubbles, or maybe one of us does and one doesn't, or maybe they are geographic bubbles or context dependent in some other way that introduces nuance in a way that ends with "it depends." We probably won't know unless doing some sort of statistical survey.

frognumber 4y ago
I don't think we need large-scale statistics to convince each other of our mutual experiences. We just need to accept neither of us is speaking in bad faith. I don't know you, but I would speculate that you mostly interact with people from white, progressive, Western, middle-upper-class, educated, American culture, and that would be the experience there. There are 8 billion people in the world, though. I'm an immigrant and mostly interact with immigrants. The signalling is different. Divorce is bad for kids, and a lot of people in the world would like a spouse who is committed. A lot of women want someone who will commit to one relationship and work on it. I view marriage the same way as I do having a child, a parent, or any other family member; thick or thin, it not something you just opt out of unless something extreme happens. I do have one family member most of us disowned, but that was due to something rather extreme.