4 ms·

What's the control for this, though? We're talking about a conjecture that there is a non-specific, undetectable condition affecting millions of people to the p

What's the control for this, though? We're talking about a conjecture that there is a non-specific, undetectable condition affecting millions of people to the point that they are unable to work. Who pays for UBI if anyone can claim it?

wk_end 4y ago
The basic idea of UBI is that everyone claims it. That's why it's universal!
- dmonitor 4y ago
  but what happens when the ratio of “producers” vs “non-producers” reaches a point where producers can’t produce enough to meet everyone’s needs?
- ibejoeb 4y ago
  I clarified the "claim" elsewhere in this thread, but since this position is on the table now: I have no qualms helping to provide for people who need providing. So let's just suppose we do that with UBI. Now, UBI needs to be funded by someone. If you are funding UBI, what is the purpose of giving you back that money?
  - kcplate 4y ago
    This is the left side argument against UBI—“remove the U” (not everyone needs it). The right side argument is with the “BI” (just get a job you fuckin slob). This is why UBI efforts will ultimately fail—they both fundamentally oppose crucial aspects of the concept for completely different reasons.
hnuser123456 4y ago
I am constantly coughing up several fluid ounces of clear phlegm daily. I have to clear my throat with disgusting noises for at least a couple hours per day, ideally for at least 5 minutes once per hour, just to feel like I'm not drowning. I could take a picture of the puddles of phlegm daily to prove it. I've already seen a few doctors and none of them can tell exactly what it is, nor have any suggested treatments helped. Personally, I have found that using a toothbrush to brush the back of my tongue to induce a gag reflex to induce a major, choking, heaving coughing fit where it feels like my lungs are turning inside out, reduces the sensation of drowning but does not slow down fluid production. Obviously, having do to this would be very awkward in an office environment, and overall it's just extremely depressing that I'm crippled like this when I'm otherwise a very healthy 30 year old. Been living with this for 2 years and keeping my job but I'm sure everyone talks about how annoying my constant coughing is, nevermind the unlucky people who hear me clearing my throat or catch me spitting up puddles in the office parking lot.
- mrtesthah 4y ago
  That sounds terrible. Have you considered cystic fibrosis medication? Or at least something like the Lung Flute? https://www.verywellhealth.com/the-lung-flute-product-review-914826 https://www.verywellhealth.com/the-lung-flute-product-review...
  - hnuser123456 4y ago
    That is interesting. I have used something somewhat similar, it's a device that looks similar to an inhaler but has an ~18mm ball bearing in it, which vibrates in a chamber at ~10hz when exhaled through, which feels close to the resonant frequency of the lungs. This did seem to help clear out some buildup, especially at the end of an exhale, straining to blow every last bit of air out of the lungs, probably a squished-sponge effect forcing it up into the airways where it can be expelled. It is not as clear if the fluid is coming from the lungs themselves (one doctor said this is possible), from somewhere in the throat, or from the sinuses and running down. I will ask for tests for CF at the next appointment and ask if they are aware of the lung flute and would prescribe it, thanks for the suggestion. Searching amazon for "lung flute" turns up some types of devices I haven't seen before.
    - mrtesthah 4y ago
      >It is not as clear if the fluid is coming from the lungs themselves (one doctor said this is possible), from somewhere in the throat, or from the sinuses and running down. Seen an ENT about chronic tonsilitis yet?
      - hnuser123456 4y ago
        Seeing one in March, I'll ask about that. Thank you so much
neon_electro 4y ago
Everyone receives UBI. Those earning additional income beyond a threshold will pay taxes such that their "net UBI" for the tax year or other tax period will be 0 or less. But the standard UBI payments come in no matter what. Can you better phrase how you're looking at this like an experiment with control and test components?
- ibejoeb 4y ago
  That was just a poor sentence. By "claim it" I'm referring to opting not to work and citing long covid. I'm asking if after having given everyone an escape hatch, what is going to fund UBI?
  - scotty79 4y ago
    Progressive property tax. The more property you own, the higher percentage of its value you pay every year as a tax.
    - ibejoeb 4y ago
      So you want to give a large property owner UBI, but then you want to tax him more than the UBI?
      - scotty79 4y ago
        Yup. I'm gonna give him UBI because figuring out why he shouldn't get any would cost too much. And I'm gonna take the property tax to finance UBI but also to incentivise him to maybe sell some of his property to lower his property tax percentage. To reduce his ability to suck out UBI of his tenants from them.
    - ibejoeb 4y ago
      (Well, HN has put the brakes on a totally civil engagement, so I need to reply here instead of where it belongs.) OK, I see where you're going with that. The part I object to is really just an implementation detail. It's not cheaper to give him money and pay him back because 1) that's work that someone has to do, and more importantly 2) the reason you need to know if he should not be getting it is because you need to know how much to tax him in the first place, and it's the same job. That said, I don't like the implication for the aged who no longer work. I'd prefer to keep people in their homes than to tax them out of them.

wk_end 4y ago

The basic idea of UBI is that everyone claims it. That's why it's universal!

dmonitor 4y ago
but what happens when the ratio of “producers” vs “non-producers” reaches a point where producers can’t produce enough to meet everyone’s needs?
ibejoeb 4y ago
I clarified the "claim" elsewhere in this thread, but since this position is on the table now: I have no qualms helping to provide for people who need providing. So let's just suppose we do that with UBI. Now, UBI needs to be funded by someone. If you are funding UBI, what is the purpose of giving you back that money?
- kcplate 4y ago
  This is the left side argument against UBI—“remove the U” (not everyone needs it). The right side argument is with the “BI” (just get a job you fuckin slob). This is why UBI efforts will ultimately fail—they both fundamentally oppose crucial aspects of the concept for completely different reasons.

hnuser123456 4y ago

I am constantly coughing up several fluid ounces of clear phlegm daily. I have to clear my throat with disgusting noises for at least a couple hours per day, ideally for at least 5 minutes once per hour, just to feel like I'm not drowning. I could take a picture of the puddles of phlegm daily to prove it. I've already seen a few doctors and none of them can tell exactly what it is, nor have any suggested treatments helped. Personally, I have found that using a toothbrush to brush the back of my tongue to induce a gag reflex to induce a major, choking, heaving coughing fit where it feels like my lungs are turning inside out, reduces the sensation of drowning but does not slow down fluid production. Obviously, having do to this would be very awkward in an office environment, and overall it's just extremely depressing that I'm crippled like this when I'm otherwise a very healthy 30 year old. Been living with this for 2 years and keeping my job but I'm sure everyone talks about how annoying my constant coughing is, nevermind the unlucky people who hear me clearing my throat or catch me spitting up puddles in the office parking lot.

mrtesthah 4y ago
That sounds terrible. Have you considered cystic fibrosis medication? Or at least something like the Lung Flute? https://www.verywellhealth.com/the-lung-flute-product-review-914826 https://www.verywellhealth.com/the-lung-flute-product-review...
- hnuser123456 4y ago
  That is interesting. I have used something somewhat similar, it's a device that looks similar to an inhaler but has an ~18mm ball bearing in it, which vibrates in a chamber at ~10hz when exhaled through, which feels close to the resonant frequency of the lungs. This did seem to help clear out some buildup, especially at the end of an exhale, straining to blow every last bit of air out of the lungs, probably a squished-sponge effect forcing it up into the airways where it can be expelled. It is not as clear if the fluid is coming from the lungs themselves (one doctor said this is possible), from somewhere in the throat, or from the sinuses and running down. I will ask for tests for CF at the next appointment and ask if they are aware of the lung flute and would prescribe it, thanks for the suggestion. Searching amazon for "lung flute" turns up some types of devices I haven't seen before.
  - mrtesthah 4y ago
    >It is not as clear if the fluid is coming from the lungs themselves (one doctor said this is possible), from somewhere in the throat, or from the sinuses and running down. Seen an ENT about chronic tonsilitis yet?
    - hnuser123456 4y ago
      Seeing one in March, I'll ask about that. Thank you so much

neon_electro 4y ago

Everyone receives UBI. Those earning additional income beyond a threshold will pay taxes such that their "net UBI" for the tax year or other tax period will be 0 or less. But the standard UBI payments come in no matter what. Can you better phrase how you're looking at this like an experiment with control and test components?

ibejoeb 4y ago
That was just a poor sentence. By "claim it" I'm referring to opting not to work and citing long covid. I'm asking if after having given everyone an escape hatch, what is going to fund UBI?
- scotty79 4y ago
  Progressive property tax. The more property you own, the higher percentage of its value you pay every year as a tax.
  - ibejoeb 4y ago
    So you want to give a large property owner UBI, but then you want to tax him more than the UBI?
    - scotty79 4y ago
      Yup. I'm gonna give him UBI because figuring out why he shouldn't get any would cost too much. And I'm gonna take the property tax to finance UBI but also to incentivise him to maybe sell some of his property to lower his property tax percentage. To reduce his ability to suck out UBI of his tenants from them.
  - ibejoeb 4y ago
    (Well, HN has put the brakes on a totally civil engagement, so I need to reply here instead of where it belongs.) OK, I see where you're going with that. The part I object to is really just an implementation detail. It's not cheaper to give him money and pay him back because 1) that's work that someone has to do, and more importantly 2) the reason you need to know if he should not be getting it is because you need to know how much to tax him in the first place, and it's the same job. That said, I don't like the implication for the aged who no longer work. I'd prefer to keep people in their homes than to tax them out of them.