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Did it work fine or did we not notice its failings until women had more opportunity to show what could be achieved?

jfengel 4y ago
It didn't work fine. But now that we've noticed, it's a common trope to say "Hey, this system is succeeding for women because it was designed for them", which is most certainly was not. Fixing that is nontrivial, but it goes from "hard" to "impossible", when so many people start it with "The problem is women".
- randomdata 4y ago
  > which is most certainly was not. I am not sure that is fair. The system was designed for women like software was designed for men. Which is to say that the people doing the work bring their own gender experiences and biases which cannot be separated from the design, and as educators are overwhelmingly female that's what you're going to get. It is not like there is some kind of supervillain sitting in their lair, tenting his fingers, saying "School will be only for women! Muhuhahaha." Indeed, it makes for a great conspiracy theory when you can think that people could actually be that well organized, but back down to reality you really just have a large number of clueless people bumbling around doing the best they can, but the best they can is certainly biased – we all do it. > Fixing that is nontrivial The biggest thing is, who cares? Sitting here in what the OECD identifies as the most educated place on earth, and regarded as having one of the highest quality education systems around, I am really not sure what we have gained from it. Once those students become adults they don't seem to amount to much. We don't stand out on the world stage and in many ways lag behind. This is like trying to fix a dam across a canyon that is completely dry. You might be able to fix it, but take a step back... > but it goes from "hard" to "impossible", when so many people start it with "The problem is women". The double standard is quite interesting. 5-10 years ago when the software industry was identified as not serving women amid the overwhelming presence of men "The problem is men" was quite ever-present. In return, we got "Oh shit, they're right! We'd better do something to fix this." And, while perhaps there is more work to do, it is undeniable that great strides have been made.

It didn't work fine. But now that we've noticed, it's a common trope to say "Hey, this system is succeeding for women because it was designed for them", which is most certainly was not. Fixing that is nontrivial, but it goes from "hard" to "impossible", when so many people start it with "The problem is women".

randomdata 4y ago
> which is most certainly was not. I am not sure that is fair. The system was designed for women like software was designed for men. Which is to say that the people doing the work bring their own gender experiences and biases which cannot be separated from the design, and as educators are overwhelmingly female that's what you're going to get. It is not like there is some kind of supervillain sitting in their lair, tenting his fingers, saying "School will be only for women! Muhuhahaha." Indeed, it makes for a great conspiracy theory when you can think that people could actually be that well organized, but back down to reality you really just have a large number of clueless people bumbling around doing the best they can, but the best they can is certainly biased – we all do it. > Fixing that is nontrivial The biggest thing is, who cares? Sitting here in what the OECD identifies as the most educated place on earth, and regarded as having one of the highest quality education systems around, I am really not sure what we have gained from it. Once those students become adults they don't seem to amount to much. We don't stand out on the world stage and in many ways lag behind. This is like trying to fix a dam across a canyon that is completely dry. You might be able to fix it, but take a step back... > but it goes from "hard" to "impossible", when so many people start it with "The problem is women". The double standard is quite interesting. 5-10 years ago when the software industry was identified as not serving women amid the overwhelming presence of men "The problem is men" was quite ever-present. In return, we got "Oh shit, they're right! We'd better do something to fix this." And, while perhaps there is more work to do, it is undeniable that great strides have been made.