3 ms·

Yeah, but it is their response to the problem that is problematic.

deleted 4y ago
[deleted]
GrigoriyMikh 4y ago
That's one-sided view. Obviously the sexual market disposition is PROBLEMATIC to some(majority?) of men. Then minority of men will create PROBLEMATIC situation for the rest of society.
PaulHoule 4y ago
What is the right response? For a long time the response of men in suffering has been to be quiet, turn anger inward and suffer from suicide, heart disease, drug addiction and other deadly forms of despair. I'd agree that inceldom is toxic (one of my son's friends fell under the spell of an incel Youtuber and dumped my son as a friend because my son is taller than him and could possibly "heightmog" him.) but the average man has never had a social movement that cares about his plight. Reading early feminists such as Simone de Beauvoir, Betty Friedan and such I get the impression that their basic rhetorical strategy is to compare the top 0.1% man to the median woman but then implicitly comparing the agency of the average woman to a man who might not have a lot (there is a war on... time to go to war and die) This conflation of power and gender is structural to discussions of "sexual harassment" which seems to almost always be up and down power hierarchies. Hypothetically it could so sideways and sometimes it must, but you hear about it so little that I think there is some mechanism that suppresses it from being talked about. In this old book https://www.amazon.com/Affair-Morton-Hunt/dp/B001KNWKK4 https://www.amazon.com/Affair-Morton-Hunt/dp/B001KNWKK4 nearly every case study involves a woman having an affair with a man who is above her in some power hierarchy but this goes unmentioned by the author.
- giraffe_lady 4y ago
  The tragic thing about incels and the broader online men's rights movements is that the pain is real, but they've rejected the most useful lens for understanding where it comes from and how to address it. Third wave feminism prominently addresses the origins and dangers of certain aspects of masculinity, diagnoses how they harm men, and proposes well thought out mitigations and alternatives. Bell hooks for example wrote several entire books on exactly this subject, and she's not the only one.
  - PaulHoule 4y ago
    People are really negative towards outsiders with explanations. When I was in grad school, a friend and I tried to unify all the progressive organizations on campus. One thing we found was that black organizations reacted negatively to any hint of vanguardism or anything that sounded like some white people think they know better than black people. It is one reason why I reject How to be an anti-racist because it is not for white people to take a leadership role in solving black people’s problems, in particular blacks “own the problem” and get to decide what is an acceptable solution or not.
    - deleted 4y ago
      [deleted]
  - matheusmoreira 4y ago
    Of course they rejected it. Accepting feminism didn't result in them being accepted in return. Feminists can write a million books about toxic masculinity and it won't matter because those are the men that women actually have sex with. The sexual liberation of women is a major theme of feminism. Does that imply even so called "incels" will get some of that? No. On the contrary, they're even more marginalized now.
    - giraffe_lady 4y ago
      yep like that

deleted 4y ago

[deleted]

That's one-sided view. Obviously the sexual market disposition is PROBLEMATIC to some(majority?) of men. Then minority of men will create PROBLEMATIC situation for the rest of society.

PaulHoule 4y ago

What is the right response? For a long time the response of men in suffering has been to be quiet, turn anger inward and suffer from suicide, heart disease, drug addiction and other deadly forms of despair. I'd agree that inceldom is toxic (one of my son's friends fell under the spell of an incel Youtuber and dumped my son as a friend because my son is taller than him and could possibly "heightmog" him.) but the average man has never had a social movement that cares about his plight. Reading early feminists such as Simone de Beauvoir, Betty Friedan and such I get the impression that their basic rhetorical strategy is to compare the top 0.1% man to the median woman but then implicitly comparing the agency of the average woman to a man who might not have a lot (there is a war on... time to go to war and die) This conflation of power and gender is structural to discussions of "sexual harassment" which seems to almost always be up and down power hierarchies. Hypothetically it could so sideways and sometimes it must, but you hear about it so little that I think there is some mechanism that suppresses it from being talked about. In this old book https://www.amazon.com/Affair-Morton-Hunt/dp/B001KNWKK4 https://www.amazon.com/Affair-Morton-Hunt/dp/B001KNWKK4 nearly every case study involves a woman having an affair with a man who is above her in some power hierarchy but this goes unmentioned by the author.

giraffe_lady 4y ago
The tragic thing about incels and the broader online men's rights movements is that the pain is real, but they've rejected the most useful lens for understanding where it comes from and how to address it. Third wave feminism prominently addresses the origins and dangers of certain aspects of masculinity, diagnoses how they harm men, and proposes well thought out mitigations and alternatives. Bell hooks for example wrote several entire books on exactly this subject, and she's not the only one.
- PaulHoule 4y ago
  People are really negative towards outsiders with explanations. When I was in grad school, a friend and I tried to unify all the progressive organizations on campus. One thing we found was that black organizations reacted negatively to any hint of vanguardism or anything that sounded like some white people think they know better than black people. It is one reason why I reject How to be an anti-racist because it is not for white people to take a leadership role in solving black people’s problems, in particular blacks “own the problem” and get to decide what is an acceptable solution or not.
  - deleted 4y ago
    [deleted]
- matheusmoreira 4y ago
  Of course they rejected it. Accepting feminism didn't result in them being accepted in return. Feminists can write a million books about toxic masculinity and it won't matter because those are the men that women actually have sex with. The sexual liberation of women is a major theme of feminism. Does that imply even so called "incels" will get some of that? No. On the contrary, they're even more marginalized now.
  - giraffe_lady 4y ago
    yep like that