8 ms·

Legalize prostitution and regulate safety and perhaps incels would build confidence and learn to socialize a bit from paid sexual interactions? I'm kind of ign

• seydor 4y ago
  same things are happening in countries with legal prostitution
• foldr 4y ago
  Prostitution is already legal in lots of countries. I’m not sure that there’s any evidence that it makes a huge amount of difference to this problem.
  • ugh123 4y ago
    Are there any studies linking legal prostitution with less "sexual loneliness"?
  • snowpid 4y ago
    "lots of countries" To my knowledge only Germany.
    • fxtentacle 4y ago
      Netherlands, Germany, Austria, Greece, Turkey, Senegal, Nevada in the US, and various Australian states
      • LorenPechtel 4y ago
        *Parts of* Nevada--it's county choice in the rural areas (my impression is about half say yes), prohibited at the state level in the urban areas.
    • foldr 4y ago
      UK also, in addition to sibling's list.
    • snowpid 4y ago
      to correct me: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prostitution_by_region https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prostitution_by_region
    • formerly_proven 4y ago
      There's a bunch more and coincidentally most of them are also leading countries for human trafficking.
      • godelski 4y ago
        I'm looking at Europe and I'm a bit confused how this would be a causal relationship. 9 countries have legalized prostitution: Germany, Netherlands, Austria, Switzerland, Greece, Hungary, Latvia, and Turkey.[0] Human trafficking, in order of severity, is most linked to: Netherlands, UK, Romania, France, Germany, Bulgaria, Italy, Poland, Hungry, Portugal. From this list alone (these tend to follow power laws) there's a higher correlation with being a Bloc State than legalized prostitution. Unsurprising to see UK and Germany here considering they are not only the most wealthy countries, but also the most populous. Netherlands... well I got no answer there but this is just a quick look. Just given this quick look, I'd be shocked to learn that legalization of prostitution was a major causal factor in human trafficking. [0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prostitution_in_Europe https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prostitution_in_Europe [1] https://www.statista.com/chart/4947/the-eus-hotspots-for-people-trafficking/ https://www.statista.com/chart/4947/the-eus-hotspots-for-peo...
        • foldr 4y ago
          It’s more than 9. It’s also legal in the blue-colored countries confusingly labeled with ‘Abolitionism’. It in fact appears to be legal in most of the countries on your human trafficking list.
          • godelski 4y ago
            I don't think it is confusing and I don't think it is what you're suggesting. The wiki explicitly says that the act of prostitution is legal but the act of procuring it is illegal. Essentially you get arrested for paying for sex. The John. This is often done so that women have more of a safety net and can feel more comfortable going to police if they are abused. In other areas if you are trafficked you might feel scared to go to the police out of fear that they will arrest you. This isn't the same as saying that prostitution is legal because the transaction is still illegal. It also doesn't resolve the issue of the correlation, which is the main point.
    • vestrigi 4y ago
      And it’s not like that any sexually deprived young man just walks into a brothel like he walks into a pharmacy in Germany. That’s highly stigmatized and I suppose it is in the other countries as well.
  • wonderwonder 4y ago
    Do those same countries have the same level of violence as the US? I am willing to bet that sexual frustration leads to violence in a lot of instances.
• low_tech_punk 4y ago
  If people consider marriage as a contract of exchange, then it is already a form of legalized prostitution. Monogamy might be a bigger underlying problem. Esther Perel's Mating in Captivity in a good read on this topic.
  • bastardoperator 4y ago
    People who think like this don't tend to stay married long.
    • notch656c 4y ago
      People that don't, don't stay married long. I started out married thinking of it as a nebulous thing. My marriage improved when I realized it was all an exchange and I need to make sure I'm always providing my bit rather than just working towards some nebulous idea of love.
      • bastardoperator 4y ago
        I've been married 24 years and I'm happy my marriage isn't transactional. What happened if you couldn't provide your bit due to an injury? Your marriage ends?
        • notch656c 4y ago
          I have family in healthcare so I hear the stories. Serious unfixable medical injuries almost always end with the spouse at the very least getting sex on the side, at least if they're reasonably young. Getting a long term badly limiting disability in anything but old age is a recipe for divorce. Eventually the loving spouse gets caretaker fatigue and is overloaded from carrying the weight without relief. I fully expect and will not hold it against my spouse if I'm seriously disabled for over a year and the marriage ends. Any high moral ground about love and honor or whatever falls apart when you're grinding in poverty and going to be sucked under yourself with no light at the end of the tunnel.
• dtx1 4y ago
  I dont think prostitution can fix that issue in the slightest. Here in Germany prostitution is legal and highly regulated (to the point that there are ticket stations for prostitutes working on the street to pay taxes). I would however never ever consider using those services.
  • onlyrealcuzzo 4y ago
    > I would however never ever consider using those services. Maybe because you don't need or want to? If you're the type of person that wants to have sex with someone, and you're willing to pay for it, and you have the option - you're probably going to. If not, you're either expecting too much for too little compensation or regulation is preventing the market from being efficient.
    • dtx1 4y ago
      No because I would rather not have sex than take part in the exploitation of at risk woman. Just because it's legal and regulated doesn't mean there aren't horrible things going on. > If you're the type of person that wants to have sex with someone, and you're willing to pay for it, and you have the option - you're probably going to. I am the kind of person that wants to have sex with someone. I'd be willing to pay for it, i have the option. But I'd rather not have sex than be involved in such things. It's an ethical decision no matter how lonely I get.
    • LorenPechtel 4y ago
      Someone who wants sex in the context of a relationship might very well have no interest in a prostitute. The thought of sex with a stranger is repulsive to me.
• honkler 4y ago
  [flagged]
  • dangond 4y ago
    So King Louis XVI witnessed the end of French monarchical rule because he failed to ban... what? Revolutions? Monarchy has nothing to do with whether or not the people in power believe in bans being useful.
    • scrollaway 4y ago
      Flag and move on, the guy is a troll and doesn't have a single useful/non-inflammatory post.
• fxtentacle 4y ago
  You suggestion kind of sounds like: Let's teach kids how to grow an apple tree by giving them apple juice. Consuming the benefits of having a woman sexually interested in you is a very different skill from creating that interest in the first place. So they would just pay to skip all the steps that they are bad at, thereby never learning them.
  • wonderwonder 4y ago
    I think that may happen in some cases but they would also learn that sex is likely not what they imagined it to be. Its just something that people do together sometimes. I think there would be emotional growth after the fact.
    • vel0city 4y ago
      > but they would also learn that sex is likely not what they imagined it to be. If you're paying someone to live out those fantasies, you're probably not going to experience "normal" sexual relationships.
  • ErikVandeWater 4y ago
    > You suggestion kind of sounds like: Let's teach kids how to grow an apple tree by giving them apple juice. This is a poor analogy because apples and apple juice don't involve social dynamics. I can easily see a man who is experienced having sex with women through prostitution being more confident flirting/being intimate with real-life women. And confidence is a large part of "creating that interest."
  • carnivor 4y ago
    Not a good analogy because you'd still be learning a ton from a paid sexual experience vs not having any. It'd be more like apple picking and eating them with the farmer that grew them, while they tell you how the apple trees are planted, cultivated, and harvested. Do it enough times and you'll have the confidence and general idea on how you can do it on your own. There's obviously a risk of getting too addicted to the instant gratification and getting stuck in this loop but I suspect that'd be a small percentage as eventually people will want the real deal relationship. Plus you'd be (temporarily) alleviating the pain and frustration of loneliness, which is a huge boost in morale and will bring hope. That being said I've never tried a prostitute, although I've considered it in times of loneliness for the same reasons above.
• josefresco 4y ago
  > incels would build confidence and learn to socialize a bit While there's a perception that incels are ugly, socially awkward nerds, the one's I've interreacted with online (and off) tend to be angry, misogynistic douchebags. The nerdiest guys I know (IRL) all have significant others. The bitter guys I know (two) IRL are older, have let themselves go and have nothing "going for them". They are both very active online however. This is my personal experience, anecdotal of course.
  • bt4u 4y ago
    [dead]
  • some_random 4y ago
    That's exactly it, and it really muddies discussions. So many dumbass discussions of "why don't the femcels and incels just date each other" by people who have absolutely no idea what either of the groups are beyond the name.
  • dudul 4y ago
    At this point, "incel" is one of these buzzwords that don't mean anything anymore.
  • kelseyfrog 4y ago
    Agree. There's a cottage industry of social media influencers who find money in selling this cadre a simple message, "There is a reason it's hard for you and this is the group who's making it that way. I'll teach you why they're wrong and how to fight them to win." It's an appealing message for a group who sees their intrinsic or essential power impotent in a changing world. It means that radical self-growth, a long and difficult process, doesn't have to happen, painful self-truths don't have to be addressed, and basic skills like empathy don't have to be cultivated. In short, issues can be externalized.
  • fancybouncy 4y ago
    > have let themselves go and have nothing "going for them" that is, they fell ill with depression because of lack of relationships, entering a loop of ever-furthering isolation and depression, which made them bitter and undesirable. Some "ugly, socially awkward nerds" somehow find meaningful relationships and get saved. Others don't, and go down the nasty road. A little bit of empathy wouldn't hurt.
• wonderwonder 4y ago
  100% this. How many acts of violence by lonely men would be avoided if they had just had the opportunity to go out, drop $150 and have sex. Especially sex that catered to whatever fetish they happened to indulge in. I have no scientific numbers to back this but I am willing to be the answer is "a lot". I feel like if an isolated, angry virgin was able to have sex in a non judgmental environment they would lose their hostility and likely be all the better for it.
  • pmarreck 4y ago
    Here are your numbers: The time Rhode Island "accidentally" legalized prostitution for a number of years, and then made it illegal again, and the correlations to public health that seemed to result from this: https://whyy.org/articles/prostitution-decriminalized-rhode-islands-experiment/ https://whyy.org/articles/prostitution-decriminalized-rhode-... Scroll down to the section "Researchers take notice" if you are low on time. They used surrounding states as a control. They tried hard to account for the consequences, but that pesky 40% drop in gonorrhea and 30% drop in rapes (!) just wouldn't go away (and also doesn't fit the feminist narrative that rape is "only about power")
  • tsimionescu 4y ago
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  • JeremyBanks 4y ago
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  • giraffe_lady 4y ago
    And I don't see how there's anything to back up this assumption. It seems to me more likely that men expressing misogyny online would also express it in person. Sex workers may individually choose to tolerate that or may not, but either way this opportunity exists now and this problem still persists.
    • pmarreck 4y ago
      > And I don't see how there's anything to back up this assumption I present to you, some pretty good data: the time Rhode Island "accidentally" legalized prostitution for a number of years, and then made it illegal again, and the correlations to public health that seemed to result from this: https://whyy.org/articles/prostitution-decriminalized-rhode-islands-experiment/ https://whyy.org/articles/prostitution-decriminalized-rhode-... Scroll down to the section "Researchers take notice" if you are low on time. They used surrounding states as a control. They tried hard to account for the consequences, but that pesky 40% drop in gonorrhea and 30% drop in rapes (!) just wouldn't go away (and also doesn't fit the feminist narrative that rape is "only about power") There's also no convincing evidence (just cherrypicked data that is either pro- or con-) that legalizing prostitution results in more sex trafficking. > Sex workers may individually choose to tolerate that or may not Funny thing about you saying that, they can't choose anything if it's illegal- if it's legal, they can not only choose, they can bring legal charges against anyone who mistreats them.
• farmaway 4y ago
  This seems like finding yourself in a depressing situation, becoming depressed, and solving the problem with pharmaceuticals rather than changing the circumstances which led to depression in the first place.
• Zigurd 4y ago
  Women have already chosen the safest way to be sex workers: Through media like OnlyFans. All relations with men, but especially prostitution, are vastly more dangerous for women. The fact that women have chosen this way of interacting with men on a paid basis should tell you it's not because they are prudes about sex work. They don't feel safe, and for very good reasons. This is yet another example of how men need to stop "solving" this problem with their own clever ideas. Stop and listen. You will hear answers.
• afavour 4y ago
  I think that would work on the immediate effects (i.e. "sexual loneliness") but build confidence and learn to socialize? I doubt that. Sex is the endgame. Before that you've got a whole world of social interaction and skill and skipping to the end wouldn't help you with any of that. Maybe if the prostitutes were more like escorts, you go out on a date, they give you honest feedback about how you're presenting yourself and so on. But that feels far outside the typical work of a prostitute. EDIT: now I think of it I doubt it would work on sexual loneliness either. I can't imagine that loneliness is solved simply by the act of sex, there's feeling wanted, feeling desired, all those things. I have no experience (I swear, officer!) but I can't imagine getting those things out of something I know is a financial transaction for my partner.
  • MPSimmons 4y ago
    >Sex is the endgame Maslow would suggest otherwise.
• yibg 4y ago
  Anecdotally I've heard of people using prostitutes as "practice" in some asian countries where they're either legal or at least not enforced.
• throw_m239339 4y ago
  > Legalize prostitution and regulate safety and perhaps incels would build confidence and learn to socialize a bit from paid sexual interactions? Incels don't like prostitutes, they despise them. Incels believe that they are _owed_ sex, they don't want to pay for sex. You fundamentally misunderstand what Incel claim being. Prostitution is legal in Germany, guess what country in the EU comes first when it comes to the number of self declared incels https://home-affairs.ec.europa.eu/system/files/2021-10/ran_incels_first_scan_of_phenomen_and_relevance_challenges_for_p-cve_202110_en.pdf https://home-affairs.ec.europa.eu/system/files/2021-10/ran_i... Prostitution advocate often claim that legalizing prostitution will lower violence against females, there is absolutely not a single proof that true. All we know is that legalizing prostitution increase the demand for legal and illegal (minors, trafficked women) prostitution. https://journalistsresource.org/economics/legalized-prostitution-human-trafficking-inflows/ https://journalistsresource.org/economics/legalized-prostitu... Nobody is owed sex. Not a single person on the planet, with anybody.
• charcircuit 4y ago
  They would no longer be incels. Most incels wouldn't settle by using prostitutes.
• vibero 4y ago
  Make things worse for women to appease lonely men? No thank you. That the 'oldest profession' is essentially paid rape says a lot really. Better to criminalise only those who seek to use prostitutes, and provide help and support for those who wish to exit the sex trade.
• matheusmoreira 4y ago
  > Legalize prostitution and regulate safety and perhaps incels would build confidence and learn to socialize a bit from paid sexual interactions? Prostitution is legal in my country. One can literally go to a clearnet website and get a menu full of humans to choose from. So called "incels" still exist.
• GuB-42 4y ago
  I think incel is as much about involuntary celibate as antisemitism is against semitic languages. Incels are a hate group only vaguely related to celibate. And legalizing prostitution (something I am for) will probably do as good to that group as language lessons would do against antisemitism as we know it today.