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I don't see the problem here. > Defendant (as dictated by AI): The Supreme Court ruled in Johnson v. Smith in 1978... > Judge: There was no case Johnson v. Sm

I don't see the problem here. > Defendant (as dictated by AI): The Supreme Court ruled in Johnson v. Smith in 1978... > Judge: There was no case Johnson v. Smith in 1978. Case closed, here's your fine. Next time please be more careful picking the lawyer.

barbazoo 4y ago
Do judges know about all prior cases or do they check when they hear one referenced? It feels like this could easily slip through, no?
- dinkumthinkum 4y ago
  That’s not how the legal system works. You aren’t slipping anything through. Either the judge knows the case, they don’t know all the cases, or the judge will research or clerks will research and you will be sanctioned if you try to do so thing unethical.
- AlexTWithBeard 4y ago
  IANAL, but I'd think in this case this is prosecutor's job. Also, the original post is about the traffic ticket. I'm pretty sure if the judge hears a reference to something he had never heard before, he'll be like "huh? wtf?"
- deleted 4y ago
  [deleted]
- torstenvl 4y ago
  "Counsel, I'm unfamiliar with the case you've cited. Have you brought a copy for the court? No? How about a bench brief? Very well. I am going to excuse the panel for lunch and place the court in recess. Members of the jury, please return at 1:00. Counsel, please arrive with bench briefs including printouts of major cases at 12:30. Court stands in recess." bang "All rise!"
torstenvl 4y ago
Well, the problem is that the defendant has a right to competent representation, and ineffective assistance of counsel fails to fulfill that right. (Your hypothetical includes a fine, so it isn't clear whether the offense in your hypothetical is one with, shall we say, enhanced sixth amendment protections under Gideon and progeny, or even one involving a criminal offense rather than a simple civil infraction, but...) in many cases lack of a competent attorney is considered structural error, meaning automatic reversal. In practice, that means that judges (who are trying to prevent their decisions from being overturned) will gently correct defense counsel and guide them toward competence, something that frustrated me when I was a prosecutor but which the system relies upon.
- gptgpp 4y ago
  Seems like the solution is clear then. If the judge gently corrects defense counsel and guides them towards competence, they can just do the same with AI. Then the company can use that data to improve it! Eventually it will be perfect with all the free labor from those judges. >Judge: that case does not exist. Ask it about this case instead >AI: I apologize for the mistake, that case is more applicable. blah blah blah. Hallucinates an incorrect conclusion and cites another hallucinated case to support it. Judge: The actual conclusion to the case was this, and that other case also does not exist. Isn't that the same thing? Seems fine to me, I know the legal system is already pretty overwhelmed but eventually it might get so good everyone could be adequately represented by a public defender. Speaking of, I remember reading most poor people can only see the free lawyer they've been assigned for a couple minutes and they barely review the case? I don't understand how that is okay, as long as technically they're competent even if the lack of time makes them pretty ineffective...
  - torstenvl 4y ago
    Ehhh... the judge's patience for that kind of thing is not unlimited. At some point they're going to reopen the inquiry about counsel (there's also the issue that an AI probably can't be your counsel of record, since it hasn't passed the bar; more likely the court would view it as you representing yourself with the assistance of research software). BREAK BREAK My jurisdiction (the military justice system) is a bit of an oddball, but I generally (softly) disagree with your last paragraph. In jurisdictions with good criminal justice systems, most cases don't take that long to review. Possession of marijuana case, the officer stopped you for a broken taillight, smelled or claimed to smell marijuana, asked you if it was okay if he takes a look. You said okay. He finds a tiny amount of a green leafy substance in a small plastic bag. He says, "Hey look, marijuana is not that big a deal but lots of this stuff is laced with other things. This is just marijuana, right?" and you respond "Yes, sir, just marijuana, I don't mess with any real drugs." Prosecution is offering a diversion deal with probation and no permanent criminal record. The correct answer in that case is to take the deal. We are not going to win by arguing that Raich was wrongly decided or that the officer lied about smelling it (because we're probably talking state court, so Raich doesn't matter, and you consented to the search, so the pretext, even if it was pretextual, also doesn't matter). We also aren't going to win attacking the chain of evidence, because the drug lab results don't matter, because you admitted it's marijuana. In that case, yes, I'm going to take all of about 4 minutes to strongly advise the client to take the deal.

barbazoo 4y ago

Do judges know about all prior cases or do they check when they hear one referenced? It feels like this could easily slip through, no?

dinkumthinkum 4y ago
That’s not how the legal system works. You aren’t slipping anything through. Either the judge knows the case, they don’t know all the cases, or the judge will research or clerks will research and you will be sanctioned if you try to do so thing unethical.
AlexTWithBeard 4y ago
IANAL, but I'd think in this case this is prosecutor's job. Also, the original post is about the traffic ticket. I'm pretty sure if the judge hears a reference to something he had never heard before, he'll be like "huh? wtf?"
deleted 4y ago
[deleted]
torstenvl 4y ago
"Counsel, I'm unfamiliar with the case you've cited. Have you brought a copy for the court? No? How about a bench brief? Very well. I am going to excuse the panel for lunch and place the court in recess. Members of the jury, please return at 1:00. Counsel, please arrive with bench briefs including printouts of major cases at 12:30. Court stands in recess." bang "All rise!"

torstenvl 4y ago

Well, the problem is that the defendant has a right to competent representation, and ineffective assistance of counsel fails to fulfill that right. (Your hypothetical includes a fine, so it isn't clear whether the offense in your hypothetical is one with, shall we say, enhanced sixth amendment protections under Gideon and progeny, or even one involving a criminal offense rather than a simple civil infraction, but...) in many cases lack of a competent attorney is considered structural error, meaning automatic reversal. In practice, that means that judges (who are trying to prevent their decisions from being overturned) will gently correct defense counsel and guide them toward competence, something that frustrated me when I was a prosecutor but which the system relies upon.

gptgpp 4y ago
Seems like the solution is clear then. If the judge gently corrects defense counsel and guides them towards competence, they can just do the same with AI. Then the company can use that data to improve it! Eventually it will be perfect with all the free labor from those judges. >Judge: that case does not exist. Ask it about this case instead >AI: I apologize for the mistake, that case is more applicable. blah blah blah. Hallucinates an incorrect conclusion and cites another hallucinated case to support it. Judge: The actual conclusion to the case was this, and that other case also does not exist. Isn't that the same thing? Seems fine to me, I know the legal system is already pretty overwhelmed but eventually it might get so good everyone could be adequately represented by a public defender. Speaking of, I remember reading most poor people can only see the free lawyer they've been assigned for a couple minutes and they barely review the case? I don't understand how that is okay, as long as technically they're competent even if the lack of time makes them pretty ineffective...
- torstenvl 4y ago
  Ehhh... the judge's patience for that kind of thing is not unlimited. At some point they're going to reopen the inquiry about counsel (there's also the issue that an AI probably can't be your counsel of record, since it hasn't passed the bar; more likely the court would view it as you representing yourself with the assistance of research software). BREAK BREAK My jurisdiction (the military justice system) is a bit of an oddball, but I generally (softly) disagree with your last paragraph. In jurisdictions with good criminal justice systems, most cases don't take that long to review. Possession of marijuana case, the officer stopped you for a broken taillight, smelled or claimed to smell marijuana, asked you if it was okay if he takes a look. You said okay. He finds a tiny amount of a green leafy substance in a small plastic bag. He says, "Hey look, marijuana is not that big a deal but lots of this stuff is laced with other things. This is just marijuana, right?" and you respond "Yes, sir, just marijuana, I don't mess with any real drugs." Prosecution is offering a diversion deal with probation and no permanent criminal record. The correct answer in that case is to take the deal. We are not going to win by arguing that Raich was wrongly decided or that the officer lied about smelling it (because we're probably talking state court, so Raich doesn't matter, and you consented to the search, so the pretext, even if it was pretextual, also doesn't matter). We also aren't going to win attacking the chain of evidence, because the drug lab results don't matter, because you admitted it's marijuana. In that case, yes, I'm going to take all of about 4 minutes to strongly advise the client to take the deal.