4 ms·

Isn’t it impossible to have truly from-scratch reproducible builds? IIRC, you have to trust the compiler which can’t be built from scratch.

ectopod 4y ago
You can bootstrap the compiler. It's a chore but not impossible. More usefully, you can check that your builds are identical to other people's, so at least your compiler isn't uniquely compromised.
- londons_explore 4y ago
  > You can bootstrap the compiler. It's a chore but not impossible. And specifically, only one person needs to do this once... I'm surprised there isn't some project doing this...
  - yjftsjthsd-h 4y ago
    There is: https://savannah.nongnu.org/projects/stage0/ https://savannah.nongnu.org/projects/stage0/
- withinboredom 4y ago
  I don’t think it’s possible since you’d need the original compilers from the 70’s and bootstrap other compilers up to a modern one. Otherwise your existing compiler could taint your new one.
  - chameco 4y ago
    It'd be a fun exercise to write a tiny Forth in machine code (sans assembler) and use it to write enough of a C compiler to build tcc, or something along those lines. From there I think you can chain old (but accessible) gcc versions up to modern gcc.
  - chithanh 4y ago
    No, you only need two compilers that have not been subverted by the same adversary. https://www.schneier.com/blog/archives/2006/01/countering_trus.html https://www.schneier.com/blog/archives/2006/01/countering_tr...
    - withinboredom 4y ago
      That’s a good point
  - chlorion 4y ago
    There are people who spend time trying to solve this issue! https://bootstrappable.org/ https://bootstrappable.org/ https://www.gnu.org/software/mes/ https://www.gnu.org/software/mes/ The idea here, is that if you can get a very basic C compiler, you can start building TinyCC, and eventually build a pre-C++ version of GCC, and from there build up to modern GCC. This is a lot easier said than done of course, but not quite as bad as needing the original compilers from the 70s!
  - ectopod 4y ago
    Many years ago I wrote a C compiler in assembly language. It wasn't hard, and C hasn't changed that much. The complexity in modern compilers is in the optimisation, which you don't need if you're bootstrapping. It's not impossible.
    - withinboredom 4y ago
      A pragmatic approach!

ectopod 4y ago

You can bootstrap the compiler. It's a chore but not impossible. More usefully, you can check that your builds are identical to other people's, so at least your compiler isn't uniquely compromised.

londons_explore 4y ago
> You can bootstrap the compiler. It's a chore but not impossible. And specifically, only one person needs to do this once... I'm surprised there isn't some project doing this...
- yjftsjthsd-h 4y ago
  There is: https://savannah.nongnu.org/projects/stage0/ https://savannah.nongnu.org/projects/stage0/
withinboredom 4y ago
I don’t think it’s possible since you’d need the original compilers from the 70’s and bootstrap other compilers up to a modern one. Otherwise your existing compiler could taint your new one.
- chameco 4y ago
  It'd be a fun exercise to write a tiny Forth in machine code (sans assembler) and use it to write enough of a C compiler to build tcc, or something along those lines. From there I think you can chain old (but accessible) gcc versions up to modern gcc.
- chithanh 4y ago
  No, you only need two compilers that have not been subverted by the same adversary. https://www.schneier.com/blog/archives/2006/01/countering_trus.html https://www.schneier.com/blog/archives/2006/01/countering_tr...
  - withinboredom 4y ago
    That’s a good point
- chlorion 4y ago
  There are people who spend time trying to solve this issue! https://bootstrappable.org/ https://bootstrappable.org/ https://www.gnu.org/software/mes/ https://www.gnu.org/software/mes/ The idea here, is that if you can get a very basic C compiler, you can start building TinyCC, and eventually build a pre-C++ version of GCC, and from there build up to modern GCC. This is a lot easier said than done of course, but not quite as bad as needing the original compilers from the 70s!
- ectopod 4y ago
  Many years ago I wrote a C compiler in assembly language. It wasn't hard, and C hasn't changed that much. The complexity in modern compilers is in the optimisation, which you don't need if you're bootstrapping. It's not impossible.
  - withinboredom 4y ago
    A pragmatic approach!