11 ms·

There's no single cause and no single cure which is why it's so hard. I moved cities at 10 years old, and was bullied and isolated during the entirety of Middl

There's no single cause and no single cure which is why it's so hard. I moved cities at 10 years old, and was bullied and isolated during the entirety of Middle School. Ever since then, I've always had negative and depressive thoughts lurking around. It's just my normal. A psychiatrist helped me understand that those formative years are when your cortex is developing. The cortex learns through repetition, and during those years I was having constant sadness and suffering events. So, my emotional intelligence learned to be that way and that's why I've suffered ever since. If I'm not pro active in thinking about being happy or doing active things, I default to being depressed. After almost 20 years, I'm still suffering. A side effect of being isolated during those years is my social skills have taken longer to develop. I didn't have a true batch of friends until college, but now I've lost all of them.

kodah 4y ago
Same thing, ish, here. I don't know if my experience is anecdotal but this gets easier with age. I can hypothesize that I did a lot of unpacking and that my experiences today are much more net positive, thus drifting my "default state" farther from a depressive mindset. Mushrooms helped, but I'd recommend anyone looking into mushrooms, or psychedelics in general, to be cognizant that dealing with trauma in a trip can either be really great or really terrifying. You also are largely not in the driver's seat when dealing with trauma in a trip and fighting it will make things worse. The latter being a lesson I've learned many times over at this point.
UncleOxidant 4y ago
Bullying is such a detrimental thing to experience. It has lifelong consequences. It's good to see that schools in the US are taking it more seriously than they used to. In the past the attitude from adults seemed to be that experiencing bullying would make you tougher. Now we know better. I know that I personally still suffer the effects of bullying some 40 to 50 years later - for example, I tend to withdraw from any conflict/confrontation in the work setting misinterpreting even constructive conflict/criticism as being directed at me personally. When I was a kid playing with other kids I tended to withdraw and disappear even in situations where there was no bullying because I came to expect it would happen. And I see that I withdraw similarly in the workplace. In that sense the bullying from many years ago has negatively impacted my career and mental health (anxiety, panic attacks and a bit of paranoia as I'm always expecting the worst from other people).
- charlieflowers 4y ago
  > It's good to see that schools in the US are taking it more seriously than they used to. It's nothing but lip service. Bullying is largely the result of several quite obvious system design flaws. 30 kids to one adult is going to result in a Lord of the Flies culture, and that culture will get worse as you scale to additional 30+ classrooms. Further, actually paying attention to the emotional state of a child and nurturing it carefully at the times it needs that would be hard to pull off in a group of _five_ kids. But at all costs, we need every mom and dad in the country working all the time to maximize the size of our economy (and help the rich keep getting richer). We need conforming, beaten down worker bees who've been trained to drag out of bed and go where dictated all day long to fill all the jobs that keep the economy humming. So any changes in the favor of nurturing kids reasonably (not even optimally, just reasonably) just aren't in the cards. But we can make some nice posters about it.
RobotToaster 4y ago
I've read early life adversity can cause epigenetic changes.
citilife 4y ago
Probably wont be taken well, but IMO depression is an illness in the spiritual sense. Depression is described as being sad, alone and without hope. That's quite literally what spirituality is for. I think it's probably impossible to treat with drugs because what people really need are friends, hope and a good outlook on life (which often comes from hope). I'm sure drugs can improve people with imbalances and I'm also sure it's not just one thing that causes depression. That said, it seems like it can often be solved with more traditional means -- finding community and purpose.
- curioussavage 4y ago
  I think it’s impossible for many to be treated without drugs. I think it’s irresponsible to tell people with a disease that saps their energy and motivation that the solution is to pick themselves up, willpower their way through it and go be social and active etc. medicine itself is a very traditional means of helping people, probably as old as civilization. No need for an “imbalance” as justification to get help through medication. This attitude is a form of ableism that can ultimately be deadly for the people it’s targeted at if they buy into it. Coming from a spiritual and community oriented background people aren’t doing well. “medicine bad” and constant implicit and explicit messages they get - that they must not be doing it right, doesn’t help at all.
zadler 4y ago
ADHD is the same thing for many people. It’s an infant driven to distraction because of “problems in the environment”. Well maybe there are congenital cases, but there are others that aren’t, and there’s no money in the root cause analysis.
- curioussavage 4y ago
  It’s a brain development disorder. That means the brain doesn’t develop the same. Not just a baby “driven to distraction”. Genes and environment. For example it’s more common in premature babies. Plenty of past and ongoing research
softfalcon 4y ago
This is similar to my formative years. At 5 1/2, moved to a new city. Was bullied as the outsider foreigner kid until around 12 when we moved to another city. Was bullied again as the outsider foreigner kid. I turned into a depressed, "emo", grumpy kid around 8-12 and that became an angry, misunderstood kid after the second move. It has been decades since that time, but I am doing better now. Being depressed, moody, overly serious, is my default now. I've learned to work past it like you've described, change my outlook. It still sucks having a default downer attitude in my head though. Still more work to go. My parents and siblings were always perplexed by this. To this day, they still think nothing is wrong with how it all went down. I was just a "problem kid". That worked for them, problem kid was a convenient scape-goat for all the other familial difficulties we had going on. If I ever have kids, I'll do my best to not disrupt their lives the way mine was. Hopefully, I'll be a lot more attuned to make sure they're dealing with social pressures better than I did. No one needs to live the way I lived, it's not mentally healthy.
lawrenceyan 4y ago
If you want to dive further and resolve things: http://sodapi.leighb.com/ http://sodapi.leighb.com/
TaupeRanger 4y ago
For every one of these anecdotes, there's another where the kid has a great childhood and school experience but still ends up depressed. Or one that is severely bullied but ended up enlightened and happy. Psychiatrists can come up with whatever post hoc explanations they want, but as you said, it's multifactorial, and therefore does not admit simple explanations.
- jakeinspace 4y ago
  Yeah, I'd fit in that camp. I don't think I've got any repressed childhood trauma hiding under 20 layers, ready for a psychiatrist to uncover, I'm just sad. There are good days and bad.
- likeabbas 4y ago
  Anyone can succumb to depression. I was giving my experience as an example to show that it’s important for people to understand why they are depressed, and that psychiatry may help you find the reason.
  - TaupeRanger 4y ago
    My point is that you don't know if psychiatry actually gave you the reason. It may actually have nothing to do with that.
- heavyset_go 4y ago
  The link between childhood abuse and neglect and mental illness like depression is well documented.
cvccvroomvroom 4y ago
Depression seems like dementia/Alzheimer's: not a single disease but a process with holistic factors. Interestingly, I'm convinced depressive state accumulates during a sleep cycle. Missing a single dose of mirtazapine and then sleeping feels exactly like an alcohol hangover. I'm also convinced alcohol is a CNS depressant and abuse of it induces depression. Edit: Similar experience. Chaotic home life with fighting parents with high anxiety levels. Emotional problems, speech issues, out-of-norm appearance and intellect, bullying, and intense untreated depression and ADHD-PI for many years. Too many factors to control for. I suspect genes and epigenetics.
goldenchrome 4y ago
I’ve had a similar experience so I’m sympathetic. However, I don’t totally believe what your psychiatrist told you. People don’t just get randomly bullied, just like people don’t get randomly popular. I believe that there’s a common set of personality types across our species and you (and I) are just less socially adaptive. So we’re weirder, more prone to being an outsider, and less likely to make friends. I wouldn’t put this all on your experiences from a two year period from decades ago. It’s probably just who you are. I think it’s important to frame it this way in order to empower yourself. If it’s just who you are, then you can accept it, adjust the way you live, and even alter your perspective enough where you don’t feel weighed down anymore. But if it’s an injustice that happened to you far in the past then you’re a victim and you just have to deal with it because you didn’t get lucky. Many people don’t want to take my perspective because it sort of sounds like I’m saying that some people deserve to be bullied. I do think it’s true in a way, but then I’m not one who thinks life should be fair.
- nequo 4y ago
  I think that's a good point. Maybe there is truth to both, and the brain is plastic, so we can also change who we are.
fithisux 4y ago
In a big degree it reflects me.
pilif 4y ago
Let me add a counter anecdote: from kindergarten through primary school and high school my life was hell thanks to bullying (being slightly neurodivergent in the 80ies and 90ies is a recipe for disaster) to the point of me nearly killing myself. Once I left school behind me and met people who respected me, I managed to let all of that past behind me and become a very happy person with (so far) zero depressive tendencies. There is still some trauma left when I see my kid being teased or teasing somebody (to a much smaller scale than what I went through), but aside of that I'm very glad my brain managed to escape hell unscathed.
mathematicaster 4y ago
Thank you for sharing this.
- likeabbas 4y ago
  Any time. I wish every child could have rich formative years so they can avoid long lasting emotional pain.
incognito_robot 4y ago
It is uncanny how much this mimics my own experience. Was bullied between ages 11-16. Grew a a social circle in high school, which started fragmenting once everyone went off to university. I rarely if ever see any of them anymore. Before the bullying, I was aparently happy and excited for most things (according to siblings). After it I have always been the low energy serious guy. 20 years on I feel an intense need for human connection, but no matter how much I try I never seem to be able to cultivate any kind of lasting relationship with others.
- zeroonetwothree 4y ago
  Depression often develops in adolescence so I think we should be a bit skeptical with the 'correlation is not causation' going on with these examples.
- Traubenfuchs 4y ago
  > It is uncanny how much this mimics my own experience. A significant amount of people damaged exactly like that run around. It‘s nothing noteworthy nor exceptional. And there is no recognized cure for us. My pet theory is that through either nature or nurture, we are permanently damaged individuals that won‘t ever experience what we perceive as the normal, healthy social life and mental states. Our brains are permanently altered to our detriment. Connecting to your anecdote: I am 30 and my mom still mentions what a lively and happy child I was. I wish she wouldn‘t, because it hurts to hear about the potential I squandered, lost or had stolen.
  - ryanwaggoner 4y ago
    There are no magic bullets, but the research on psychedelics and depression are encouraging.
    - Traubenfuchs 4y ago
      The only time I managed to acquire psylocobin was on an island where a big rave was happening. A hippie guy sold me magic mushroom pills. I was too scared to take it in this atmosphere and wanted to take the pills home. To leave the island, one had to walk through nipple-high water. The pills in my wallet melted away in the water. Maybe some other day.
csours 4y ago
It seems likely that depression is also not a single disease.
exo-pla-net 4y ago
Your brain cannot "learn" to be sad. You can, however, learn maladaptive schemata: fundamental ways of viewing the world and oneself that can help a child get through adverse periods (like bullying and ostracization), but which are ultimately maladaptive and inaccurate in adulthood. You might have come to believe, for instance, that you're fundamentally "different" or "unlovable", and that you can't expect to be socially accepted or loved. These core beliefs, these schemata, are difficult but possible to change. Schema Therapy has had empirical success at doing so. The subjective experience of changing a maladaptive schema is like teleporting from a miserable planet to a strange but much happier, more loving planet. You can be (much) happier than you think; you're just stranded on a miserable planet, one that would make anybody sad. I'd suggest checking out Reinventing Your Life by Jeffrey Young: it provides the tools you need to get to that happier planet, where you can feel safer and loved and accepted.
- likeabbas 4y ago
  > Your brain cannot "learn" to be sad. This is ~equivocally~ unequivocally false. The portion of the brain that develops emotional intelligence forms during your formative years and can learn to be put in a depressive mindset. * https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5984129/ https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5984129/ * https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC6132040/ https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC6132040/ > Humans are likely the most emotionally regulated creatures on earth. Compared to other animal species, we can modulate and modify emotional reactions and experiences, even very intense ones, through a large and sophisticated emotion regulation repertoire that includes skills of distraction, reappraisal, language, prediction, social interaction, suppression, and more.1–5 At times, these skills require effort, and at other times, they seem reflexive and automatic. But what are some of the variables in this sophisticated emotion regulation repertoire? The parent of any toddler or even adolescent can attest to the very slow development of emotion regulation processes. This slow development has been documented in empirical research, which also notes the large individual differences from one person’s ability or style of emotion regulation to another’s. Evolutionarily speaking, this slow development of emotion regulation ability in childhood that culminates in an exquisite ability in adulthood points to the benefits of a slow-maturing emotion regulation system. Indeed, humans are not only a highly emotionally regulated species, but they are slowly developing in general, relative to other species, 6 with a prolonged period of immaturity. Phylogenetically, slow development may confer benefits through an extended period of neural plasticity—a feature of a developing neural system that heightens its ability to learn from the environment. If so, then humans may owe their sophisticated emotion regulation skills to the “extension” of childhood that has evolved in us. The nature, chronicity, and quality of environmental inputs during these periods of plasticity, in particular those from close relationships (e.g., parents, friends, teachers), in large part determine emotion regulation functioning in adulthood.7 Thus, adult brain and behavioral function in this regard can be conceptualized as a historical reflection of what was experienced during development. To fully appreciate individual differences in adult emotion regulation skills, then, it is helpful to understand how the brain develops.
Pigo 4y ago
This reminds me of how long it took me to notice a pattern in my relationships. When I look back, it's so obvious that I was picking a certain kind of person, and behaving in a certain kind of way, that would lead to the same conclusion. But it didn't feel like I was repeating the same story over and over again just to satisfy some malformed part of my psyche. I can't rewire something so deep in me that even effects who I'm attracted to. All I can do is be aware of it, and course correct.
dmd 4y ago
> There's no single cause and no single cure which is why it's so hard. My neurologist once said to me "any time you see the phrase 'multiple mechanisms of X' in a medical journal, that's code for 'we have no fucking clue'".
ASalazarMX 4y ago
> I didn't have a true batch of friends until college, but now I've lost all of them. I think losing college friends is inevitable. People get jobs, move, marry, change, etc. Clutching to the friends when life was much simpler might not work now. The solution would be making more social ties with neighbors, family, acquaintances, hobbyists, etc., and try to find new friendships/relationships within them.
spiffytech 4y ago
> There's no single cause and no single cure which is why it's so hard. This is exactly right. I'm at the tail end of a long depressive journey that wasn't caused by self-beliefs, distorted thoughts, trauma, etc. Nearly every depression treatment I sought had zero effect. My problems came about because I had undiagnosed and unappreciated neurological + genetic conditions that created stacking debuffs that made ordinary SWE jobs tax my executive function and deplete my neurotransmitters, eventually leaving me personally and professionally debilitated. Because I suffered the symptoms for so long before identifying the causes, neurologically I seemed to have entered a new attractor (in dynamical systems terms). I couldn't recover by just discontinuing what brought me there; my neurology kept gravitating towards the new steady-state. (A good chunk of this is black-box reverse engineering what helped me recover) I've only gotten better by radically changing my circumstances, identifying a crucial supplement, and undergoing a medical procedure. The eye-opening part of the journey was understanding that because depression is defined by a set of symptoms, receiving a diagnosis doesn't tell you anything at all about what's wrong with you. It only confirms you have a problem at all.
- TurkishPoptart 4y ago
  >My problems came about because I had undiagnosed and unappreciated neurological + genetic conditions that created stacking debuffs that made ordinary SWE jobs tax my executive function and deplete my neurotransmitters, eventually leaving me personally and professionally debilitated. I love how you used "stacking debuffs" here. That made me smile.
- smn1234 4y ago
  which supplement helped you most ?
  - spiffytech 4y ago
    I have a genetic mutation called MTHFR C677T, which means my body doesn't process vitamin B9 with the necessary efficiency. B9 is upstream of regulating the quantities of monoamine neurotransmitters the brain synthesizes (serotonin, dopamine, and norepinepherine). (Not everyone with an MTHFR mutation experiences symptoms. For a long time I didn't. Best guess is my body changed after a period of intense stress.) I take L-Methylfolate 15mg, which bypasses my digestion and provides my body with the processed materials directly. The brand name for this is Deplin, which requires a prescription. I just switched to over-the-counter L-Methylfolate - it remains to be seen if it's as effective. Fun fact: once I started taking Deplin, I had to come off of all my traditional antidepressants. They were at max dosage and having no effect, but once my brain was flooded with neurotransmitters, all the antidepressant side effects kicked in, including (perversely) amplifying depression symptoms.
hi41 4y ago
I can relate to your comment a lot. I went through many years of isolation during my childhood resulting in poor social skills. After so many years my thoughts are continually negative. Like you, I too don’t have any friends. I am unable to break the cycle of loneliness. When I try my interactions are awkward which makes me self-conscious and I withdraw.
vervez 4y ago
Thanks for sharing and i'm happy to be your friend :)
agumonkey 4y ago
It would be interesting to know what phases our brains go through that 'settle' emotional / social reflexes. I had a strange life due to pre-wired issues, until 30 when a few traumatic event (including a first relationship that was as positive as negative) completely altered my reality. I was very surprising to say the least how one day you cannot exist socially (total shut-in with obsessive painful thoughts on a daily basis), and the next one you see colors and friendliness everywhere. Deep in your guts, something that really lifts your mind, imagination and heart solidly, not just a philosophical understanding. I had a year of socially vibrant emotions but gradually went back to my old self (avoidant) but I still remember that my reality is somehow altered and very far from what others can experience or what is healthy. If anybody has resources to read or places to monitor I'll be glad to know. ps: I have a ton of questions regarding the neurology of the perception of "the self" and others for the lack of better terms. if any neuroscientist has time to waste, my email is in my profile, feel free to spam.
- missingrib 4y ago
  I don't have much to add except that I've also experienced brief but seismic shifts in my perspective and my view on social interactions. It's been surreal to say the least, and in both of these different states I had a hard time seeing how I ever could have been in the other one.

kodah 4y ago

Same thing, ish, here. I don't know if my experience is anecdotal but this gets easier with age. I can hypothesize that I did a lot of unpacking and that my experiences today are much more net positive, thus drifting my "default state" farther from a depressive mindset. Mushrooms helped, but I'd recommend anyone looking into mushrooms, or psychedelics in general, to be cognizant that dealing with trauma in a trip can either be really great or really terrifying. You also are largely not in the driver's seat when dealing with trauma in a trip and fighting it will make things worse. The latter being a lesson I've learned many times over at this point.

UncleOxidant 4y ago

Bullying is such a detrimental thing to experience. It has lifelong consequences. It's good to see that schools in the US are taking it more seriously than they used to. In the past the attitude from adults seemed to be that experiencing bullying would make you tougher. Now we know better. I know that I personally still suffer the effects of bullying some 40 to 50 years later - for example, I tend to withdraw from any conflict/confrontation in the work setting misinterpreting even constructive conflict/criticism as being directed at me personally. When I was a kid playing with other kids I tended to withdraw and disappear even in situations where there was no bullying because I came to expect it would happen. And I see that I withdraw similarly in the workplace. In that sense the bullying from many years ago has negatively impacted my career and mental health (anxiety, panic attacks and a bit of paranoia as I'm always expecting the worst from other people).

charlieflowers 4y ago
> It's good to see that schools in the US are taking it more seriously than they used to. It's nothing but lip service. Bullying is largely the result of several quite obvious system design flaws. 30 kids to one adult is going to result in a Lord of the Flies culture, and that culture will get worse as you scale to additional 30+ classrooms. Further, actually paying attention to the emotional state of a child and nurturing it carefully at the times it needs that would be hard to pull off in a group of _five_ kids. But at all costs, we need every mom and dad in the country working all the time to maximize the size of our economy (and help the rich keep getting richer). We need conforming, beaten down worker bees who've been trained to drag out of bed and go where dictated all day long to fill all the jobs that keep the economy humming. So any changes in the favor of nurturing kids reasonably (not even optimally, just reasonably) just aren't in the cards. But we can make some nice posters about it.

RobotToaster 4y ago

I've read early life adversity can cause epigenetic changes.

citilife 4y ago

Probably wont be taken well, but IMO depression is an illness in the spiritual sense. Depression is described as being sad, alone and without hope. That's quite literally what spirituality is for. I think it's probably impossible to treat with drugs because what people really need are friends, hope and a good outlook on life (which often comes from hope). I'm sure drugs can improve people with imbalances and I'm also sure it's not just one thing that causes depression. That said, it seems like it can often be solved with more traditional means -- finding community and purpose.

curioussavage 4y ago
I think it’s impossible for many to be treated without drugs. I think it’s irresponsible to tell people with a disease that saps their energy and motivation that the solution is to pick themselves up, willpower their way through it and go be social and active etc. medicine itself is a very traditional means of helping people, probably as old as civilization. No need for an “imbalance” as justification to get help through medication. This attitude is a form of ableism that can ultimately be deadly for the people it’s targeted at if they buy into it. Coming from a spiritual and community oriented background people aren’t doing well. “medicine bad” and constant implicit and explicit messages they get - that they must not be doing it right, doesn’t help at all.

zadler 4y ago

ADHD is the same thing for many people. It’s an infant driven to distraction because of “problems in the environment”. Well maybe there are congenital cases, but there are others that aren’t, and there’s no money in the root cause analysis.

curioussavage 4y ago
It’s a brain development disorder. That means the brain doesn’t develop the same. Not just a baby “driven to distraction”. Genes and environment. For example it’s more common in premature babies. Plenty of past and ongoing research

softfalcon 4y ago

This is similar to my formative years. At 5 1/2, moved to a new city. Was bullied as the outsider foreigner kid until around 12 when we moved to another city. Was bullied again as the outsider foreigner kid. I turned into a depressed, "emo", grumpy kid around 8-12 and that became an angry, misunderstood kid after the second move. It has been decades since that time, but I am doing better now. Being depressed, moody, overly serious, is my default now. I've learned to work past it like you've described, change my outlook. It still sucks having a default downer attitude in my head though. Still more work to go. My parents and siblings were always perplexed by this. To this day, they still think nothing is wrong with how it all went down. I was just a "problem kid". That worked for them, problem kid was a convenient scape-goat for all the other familial difficulties we had going on. If I ever have kids, I'll do my best to not disrupt their lives the way mine was. Hopefully, I'll be a lot more attuned to make sure they're dealing with social pressures better than I did. No one needs to live the way I lived, it's not mentally healthy.

lawrenceyan 4y ago

If you want to dive further and resolve things: http://sodapi.leighb.com/ http://sodapi.leighb.com/

TaupeRanger 4y ago

For every one of these anecdotes, there's another where the kid has a great childhood and school experience but still ends up depressed. Or one that is severely bullied but ended up enlightened and happy. Psychiatrists can come up with whatever post hoc explanations they want, but as you said, it's multifactorial, and therefore does not admit simple explanations.

jakeinspace 4y ago
Yeah, I'd fit in that camp. I don't think I've got any repressed childhood trauma hiding under 20 layers, ready for a psychiatrist to uncover, I'm just sad. There are good days and bad.
likeabbas 4y ago
Anyone can succumb to depression. I was giving my experience as an example to show that it’s important for people to understand why they are depressed, and that psychiatry may help you find the reason.
- TaupeRanger 4y ago
  My point is that you don't know if psychiatry actually gave you the reason. It may actually have nothing to do with that.
heavyset_go 4y ago
The link between childhood abuse and neglect and mental illness like depression is well documented.

cvccvroomvroom 4y ago

Depression seems like dementia/Alzheimer's: not a single disease but a process with holistic factors. Interestingly, I'm convinced depressive state accumulates during a sleep cycle. Missing a single dose of mirtazapine and then sleeping feels exactly like an alcohol hangover. I'm also convinced alcohol is a CNS depressant and abuse of it induces depression. Edit: Similar experience. Chaotic home life with fighting parents with high anxiety levels. Emotional problems, speech issues, out-of-norm appearance and intellect, bullying, and intense untreated depression and ADHD-PI for many years. Too many factors to control for. I suspect genes and epigenetics.

goldenchrome 4y ago

I’ve had a similar experience so I’m sympathetic. However, I don’t totally believe what your psychiatrist told you. People don’t just get randomly bullied, just like people don’t get randomly popular. I believe that there’s a common set of personality types across our species and you (and I) are just less socially adaptive. So we’re weirder, more prone to being an outsider, and less likely to make friends. I wouldn’t put this all on your experiences from a two year period from decades ago. It’s probably just who you are. I think it’s important to frame it this way in order to empower yourself. If it’s just who you are, then you can accept it, adjust the way you live, and even alter your perspective enough where you don’t feel weighed down anymore. But if it’s an injustice that happened to you far in the past then you’re a victim and you just have to deal with it because you didn’t get lucky. Many people don’t want to take my perspective because it sort of sounds like I’m saying that some people deserve to be bullied. I do think it’s true in a way, but then I’m not one who thinks life should be fair.

nequo 4y ago
I think that's a good point. Maybe there is truth to both, and the brain is plastic, so we can also change who we are.

fithisux 4y ago

In a big degree it reflects me.

pilif 4y ago

Let me add a counter anecdote: from kindergarten through primary school and high school my life was hell thanks to bullying (being slightly neurodivergent in the 80ies and 90ies is a recipe for disaster) to the point of me nearly killing myself. Once I left school behind me and met people who respected me, I managed to let all of that past behind me and become a very happy person with (so far) zero depressive tendencies. There is still some trauma left when I see my kid being teased or teasing somebody (to a much smaller scale than what I went through), but aside of that I'm very glad my brain managed to escape hell unscathed.

mathematicaster 4y ago

Thank you for sharing this.

likeabbas 4y ago
Any time. I wish every child could have rich formative years so they can avoid long lasting emotional pain.

incognito_robot 4y ago

It is uncanny how much this mimics my own experience. Was bullied between ages 11-16. Grew a a social circle in high school, which started fragmenting once everyone went off to university. I rarely if ever see any of them anymore. Before the bullying, I was aparently happy and excited for most things (according to siblings). After it I have always been the low energy serious guy. 20 years on I feel an intense need for human connection, but no matter how much I try I never seem to be able to cultivate any kind of lasting relationship with others.

zeroonetwothree 4y ago
Depression often develops in adolescence so I think we should be a bit skeptical with the 'correlation is not causation' going on with these examples.
Traubenfuchs 4y ago
> It is uncanny how much this mimics my own experience. A significant amount of people damaged exactly like that run around. It‘s nothing noteworthy nor exceptional. And there is no recognized cure for us. My pet theory is that through either nature or nurture, we are permanently damaged individuals that won‘t ever experience what we perceive as the normal, healthy social life and mental states. Our brains are permanently altered to our detriment. Connecting to your anecdote: I am 30 and my mom still mentions what a lively and happy child I was. I wish she wouldn‘t, because it hurts to hear about the potential I squandered, lost or had stolen.
- ryanwaggoner 4y ago
  There are no magic bullets, but the research on psychedelics and depression are encouraging.
  - Traubenfuchs 4y ago
    The only time I managed to acquire psylocobin was on an island where a big rave was happening. A hippie guy sold me magic mushroom pills. I was too scared to take it in this atmosphere and wanted to take the pills home. To leave the island, one had to walk through nipple-high water. The pills in my wallet melted away in the water. Maybe some other day.

csours 4y ago

It seems likely that depression is also not a single disease.

exo-pla-net 4y ago

Your brain cannot "learn" to be sad. You can, however, learn maladaptive schemata: fundamental ways of viewing the world and oneself that can help a child get through adverse periods (like bullying and ostracization), but which are ultimately maladaptive and inaccurate in adulthood. You might have come to believe, for instance, that you're fundamentally "different" or "unlovable", and that you can't expect to be socially accepted or loved. These core beliefs, these schemata, are difficult but possible to change. Schema Therapy has had empirical success at doing so. The subjective experience of changing a maladaptive schema is like teleporting from a miserable planet to a strange but much happier, more loving planet. You can be (much) happier than you think; you're just stranded on a miserable planet, one that would make anybody sad. I'd suggest checking out Reinventing Your Life by Jeffrey Young: it provides the tools you need to get to that happier planet, where you can feel safer and loved and accepted.

likeabbas 4y ago
> Your brain cannot "learn" to be sad. This is ~equivocally~ unequivocally false. The portion of the brain that develops emotional intelligence forms during your formative years and can learn to be put in a depressive mindset. * https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5984129/ https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5984129/ * https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC6132040/ https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC6132040/ > Humans are likely the most emotionally regulated creatures on earth. Compared to other animal species, we can modulate and modify emotional reactions and experiences, even very intense ones, through a large and sophisticated emotion regulation repertoire that includes skills of distraction, reappraisal, language, prediction, social interaction, suppression, and more.1–5 At times, these skills require effort, and at other times, they seem reflexive and automatic. But what are some of the variables in this sophisticated emotion regulation repertoire? The parent of any toddler or even adolescent can attest to the very slow development of emotion regulation processes. This slow development has been documented in empirical research, which also notes the large individual differences from one person’s ability or style of emotion regulation to another’s. Evolutionarily speaking, this slow development of emotion regulation ability in childhood that culminates in an exquisite ability in adulthood points to the benefits of a slow-maturing emotion regulation system. Indeed, humans are not only a highly emotionally regulated species, but they are slowly developing in general, relative to other species, 6 with a prolonged period of immaturity. Phylogenetically, slow development may confer benefits through an extended period of neural plasticity—a feature of a developing neural system that heightens its ability to learn from the environment. If so, then humans may owe their sophisticated emotion regulation skills to the “extension” of childhood that has evolved in us. The nature, chronicity, and quality of environmental inputs during these periods of plasticity, in particular those from close relationships (e.g., parents, friends, teachers), in large part determine emotion regulation functioning in adulthood.7 Thus, adult brain and behavioral function in this regard can be conceptualized as a historical reflection of what was experienced during development. To fully appreciate individual differences in adult emotion regulation skills, then, it is helpful to understand how the brain develops.

Pigo 4y ago

This reminds me of how long it took me to notice a pattern in my relationships. When I look back, it's so obvious that I was picking a certain kind of person, and behaving in a certain kind of way, that would lead to the same conclusion. But it didn't feel like I was repeating the same story over and over again just to satisfy some malformed part of my psyche. I can't rewire something so deep in me that even effects who I'm attracted to. All I can do is be aware of it, and course correct.

dmd 4y ago

> There's no single cause and no single cure which is why it's so hard. My neurologist once said to me "any time you see the phrase 'multiple mechanisms of X' in a medical journal, that's code for 'we have no fucking clue'".

ASalazarMX 4y ago

> I didn't have a true batch of friends until college, but now I've lost all of them. I think losing college friends is inevitable. People get jobs, move, marry, change, etc. Clutching to the friends when life was much simpler might not work now. The solution would be making more social ties with neighbors, family, acquaintances, hobbyists, etc., and try to find new friendships/relationships within them.

spiffytech 4y ago

> There's no single cause and no single cure which is why it's so hard. This is exactly right. I'm at the tail end of a long depressive journey that wasn't caused by self-beliefs, distorted thoughts, trauma, etc. Nearly every depression treatment I sought had zero effect. My problems came about because I had undiagnosed and unappreciated neurological + genetic conditions that created stacking debuffs that made ordinary SWE jobs tax my executive function and deplete my neurotransmitters, eventually leaving me personally and professionally debilitated. Because I suffered the symptoms for so long before identifying the causes, neurologically I seemed to have entered a new attractor (in dynamical systems terms). I couldn't recover by just discontinuing what brought me there; my neurology kept gravitating towards the new steady-state. (A good chunk of this is black-box reverse engineering what helped me recover) I've only gotten better by radically changing my circumstances, identifying a crucial supplement, and undergoing a medical procedure. The eye-opening part of the journey was understanding that because depression is defined by a set of symptoms, receiving a diagnosis doesn't tell you anything at all about what's wrong with you. It only confirms you have a problem at all.

TurkishPoptart 4y ago
>My problems came about because I had undiagnosed and unappreciated neurological + genetic conditions that created stacking debuffs that made ordinary SWE jobs tax my executive function and deplete my neurotransmitters, eventually leaving me personally and professionally debilitated. I love how you used "stacking debuffs" here. That made me smile.
smn1234 4y ago
which supplement helped you most ?
- spiffytech 4y ago
  I have a genetic mutation called MTHFR C677T, which means my body doesn't process vitamin B9 with the necessary efficiency. B9 is upstream of regulating the quantities of monoamine neurotransmitters the brain synthesizes (serotonin, dopamine, and norepinepherine). (Not everyone with an MTHFR mutation experiences symptoms. For a long time I didn't. Best guess is my body changed after a period of intense stress.) I take L-Methylfolate 15mg, which bypasses my digestion and provides my body with the processed materials directly. The brand name for this is Deplin, which requires a prescription. I just switched to over-the-counter L-Methylfolate - it remains to be seen if it's as effective. Fun fact: once I started taking Deplin, I had to come off of all my traditional antidepressants. They were at max dosage and having no effect, but once my brain was flooded with neurotransmitters, all the antidepressant side effects kicked in, including (perversely) amplifying depression symptoms.

hi41 4y ago

I can relate to your comment a lot. I went through many years of isolation during my childhood resulting in poor social skills. After so many years my thoughts are continually negative. Like you, I too don’t have any friends. I am unable to break the cycle of loneliness. When I try my interactions are awkward which makes me self-conscious and I withdraw.

vervez 4y ago

Thanks for sharing and i'm happy to be your friend :)

agumonkey 4y ago

It would be interesting to know what phases our brains go through that 'settle' emotional / social reflexes. I had a strange life due to pre-wired issues, until 30 when a few traumatic event (including a first relationship that was as positive as negative) completely altered my reality. I was very surprising to say the least how one day you cannot exist socially (total shut-in with obsessive painful thoughts on a daily basis), and the next one you see colors and friendliness everywhere. Deep in your guts, something that really lifts your mind, imagination and heart solidly, not just a philosophical understanding. I had a year of socially vibrant emotions but gradually went back to my old self (avoidant) but I still remember that my reality is somehow altered and very far from what others can experience or what is healthy. If anybody has resources to read or places to monitor I'll be glad to know. ps: I have a ton of questions regarding the neurology of the perception of "the self" and others for the lack of better terms. if any neuroscientist has time to waste, my email is in my profile, feel free to spam.

missingrib 4y ago
I don't have much to add except that I've also experienced brief but seismic shifts in my perspective and my view on social interactions. It's been surreal to say the least, and in both of these different states I had a hard time seeing how I ever could have been in the other one.