5 ms·

If you take just a single class of gun safety, they'll drill into your head that you should treat any gun as loaded until you personally check it's not. If some

If you take just a single class of gun safety, they'll drill into your head that you should treat any gun as loaded until you personally check it's not. If someone checks a gun and sees there's not bullet in and hands you the gun, it's your duty to check it again. Even if you saw him doing in front of you just seconds before. Checking a gun to see if it's loaded should be a reflex. It does not take long, maybe one second. Why should you treat a gun when you shoot a movie any differently? If Alec's case goes in front of a jury, a lot of people in this country are familiar with how to handle a gun, and they won't give him a pass.

jdm2212 4y ago
They were using blanks on set so Baldwin would have to be able to (a) reliably differentiate between blanks and live rounds and (b) re-check the gun for live rounds before each take. Making sure props are safe to use in a scene is just not an actor's job on set.
- dragonwriter 4y ago
  (a) is trivial with fairly mininal familiarization, (b) is more the issue (ideally, you would want then to be withbthe armorer, when the gun is orepared for that, ir you would want a process established where they verify the condition before chambering a “blank” round.) But, it boils down tk the only argument against the rule that anyone handling a firearm is responsible for awareness of its condition is that on-set processses have been set up by the responsible authorities in a way which makes that impractical, which would shift the responsibility to those authorities—which, apparently, in this case is (or at a minimum includes) Baldwin in his role as Executive Producer.
  - jdm2212 4y ago
    Executive Producer usually means: this person helped make this movie happen (e.g. helped line up financing, pitched the movie to the studio), but has no direct role in overseeing day-to-day work on the movie. An actor's job is acting. That's basically it. There are lots of things on set that could be dangerous (horses, knives, furniture, electrical wires, forklifts, etc.) and it's the crew's job to make sure that the dangerous stuff is not dangerous when the actor is shooting a scene, or that the actor is carefully briefed on how to use the thing safely. In this case, "cold gun" was the crew briefing him -- telling him the gun could be used because it had no live ammo.
    - dragonwriter 4y ago
      > Executive Producer usually means Executive Producer (and producer) means a wide variety of different things, and there are frequently many with different substantive roles on any given production; but the accounts I’ve seen of Baldwin’s specific role as EP on this production, not a general inference from the scope of what the title usually means or can mean, was the basis of the description. EDIT: In any case, per protocols nominally in place for the production, as an actor he was supposed to have inspected the firearm and ammunition with the armorer. There are different accounts over the exact narrative around how that didn't happen, but none of them that I’ve seen appear to be exonerative to Baldwin.
      - jdm2212 4y ago
        Curious to read accounts of his managerial role on the production, if you have links.
- pjc50 4y ago
  To complicate this issue, Baldwin is one of the producers; he has some managerial responsibility in the way gun safety issues were being handled, which was already at "badly" ( https://www.latimes.com/entertainment-arts/business/story/2021-10-22/alec-baldwin-rust-camera-crew-walked-off-set https://www.latimes.com/entertainment-arts/business/story/20... ) The pre-existing warnings about gun safety issues and the walkoff of the union crew and their replacement by scabs? Yeah, whoever's responsible for that workplace is extremely liable.
  - jdm2212 4y ago
    Where does that article describe Baldwin having a day-to-day management role?
- tengbretson 4y ago
  Blanks are not safe to point at people either, so the point is moot.
  - jdm2212 4y ago
    As I replied below... > Baldwin did not shoot someone at short range with a blank round. By all public accounts, he handled the gun in a manner consistent with the scene's directions and safety information provided by the crew. He's no more responsible for making sure a gun is safe than he is for making sure the electrical circuits for the scene lighting won't short out.
    - barelysapient 4y ago
      Anytime you're holding a gun, its incumbent on you handle it safely. Period.
      - jdm2212 4y ago
        You can make up whatever rules you want and say "Period" afterward for emphasis. That doesn't make those rules real or relevant to how movies are made.
- philwelch 4y ago
  Even a blank round can cause injury or death at short range. At any rate, safe weapons handling means you do, in fact, check every gun you pick up every time you pick it up.
  - jdm2212 4y ago
    Baldwin did not shoot someone at short range with a blank round. By all public accounts, he handled the gun in a manner consistent with the scene's directions and safety information provided by the crew. He's no more responsible for making sure a gun is safe than he is for making sure the electrical circuits for the scene lighting won't short out.
    - philwelch 4y ago
      No, he shot the person to death with a live round. He picked up a loaded revolver, pointed it at another human being, and pulled the trigger. That other human being is now dead as a consequence of his actions. Even if he didn’t know it was loaded, which seems likely, there was no excuse for him pulling the trigger.
      - jdm2212 4y ago
        If he was driving a car on set, and someone cut the brake lines so he ran over a production assistant, a "human being is now dead as a consequence of his actions". But that doesn't make it his responsibility to check the brake lines every time he gets behind the wheel of a new car.
        _-david-_ 4y ago
        We don't know somebody else cut the brakes. Baldwin allegedly had real bullets on his belt. If Baldwin cut the brakes in his car and then ran somebody over it would be his fault.
        deleted 4y ago
        [deleted]
cwmma 4y ago
Is he being charged because he pulled the trigger or because he was the producer who fired the previous armorer?
- fuzzylightbulb 4y ago
  "The charges related to Baldwin seem to involve his specific act in handling the weapon, rather than his broader role as one of the film’s producers." https://www.vox.com/culture/23562397/rust-shooting-alec-baldwin-involuntary-manslaughter-charge https://www.vox.com/culture/23562397/rust-shooting-alec-bald...
  - trynewideas 4y ago
    > "He was the actor that pulled the trigger so certainly he's charged as an actor but also as a producer," (said New Mexico First Judicial District Attorney Mary Carmack-Altwies, who spoke with CNN on Thursday). > "He also had a duty to make sure that the set was safe and we know from our investigation that there had been accidental misfires prior to this." https://www.kcra.com/article/alec-baldwin-rust-charges-why/42581449 https://www.kcra.com/article/alec-baldwin-rust-charges-why/4...
Imnimo 4y ago
Wasn't the gun supposed to be loaded, just with blanks?
- barelysapient 4y ago
  With what I've seen about the scene they were shooting, the gun should have been empty. When gun scenes are short with blanks, its not the practice to have a camera and person directly on the other end of the gun. Instead they are to the side or much further away. That's because, even with blanks its possible for bits of metal to still leave the gun at high speed.

jdm2212 4y ago

They were using blanks on set so Baldwin would have to be able to (a) reliably differentiate between blanks and live rounds and (b) re-check the gun for live rounds before each take. Making sure props are safe to use in a scene is just not an actor's job on set.

dragonwriter 4y ago
(a) is trivial with fairly mininal familiarization, (b) is more the issue (ideally, you would want then to be withbthe armorer, when the gun is orepared for that, ir you would want a process established where they verify the condition before chambering a “blank” round.) But, it boils down tk the only argument against the rule that anyone handling a firearm is responsible for awareness of its condition is that on-set processses have been set up by the responsible authorities in a way which makes that impractical, which would shift the responsibility to those authorities—which, apparently, in this case is (or at a minimum includes) Baldwin in his role as Executive Producer.
- jdm2212 4y ago
  Executive Producer usually means: this person helped make this movie happen (e.g. helped line up financing, pitched the movie to the studio), but has no direct role in overseeing day-to-day work on the movie. An actor's job is acting. That's basically it. There are lots of things on set that could be dangerous (horses, knives, furniture, electrical wires, forklifts, etc.) and it's the crew's job to make sure that the dangerous stuff is not dangerous when the actor is shooting a scene, or that the actor is carefully briefed on how to use the thing safely. In this case, "cold gun" was the crew briefing him -- telling him the gun could be used because it had no live ammo.
  - dragonwriter 4y ago
    > Executive Producer usually means Executive Producer (and producer) means a wide variety of different things, and there are frequently many with different substantive roles on any given production; but the accounts I’ve seen of Baldwin’s specific role as EP on this production, not a general inference from the scope of what the title usually means or can mean, was the basis of the description. EDIT: In any case, per protocols nominally in place for the production, as an actor he was supposed to have inspected the firearm and ammunition with the armorer. There are different accounts over the exact narrative around how that didn't happen, but none of them that I’ve seen appear to be exonerative to Baldwin.
    - jdm2212 4y ago
      Curious to read accounts of his managerial role on the production, if you have links.
pjc50 4y ago
To complicate this issue, Baldwin is one of the producers; he has some managerial responsibility in the way gun safety issues were being handled, which was already at "badly" ( https://www.latimes.com/entertainment-arts/business/story/2021-10-22/alec-baldwin-rust-camera-crew-walked-off-set https://www.latimes.com/entertainment-arts/business/story/20... ) The pre-existing warnings about gun safety issues and the walkoff of the union crew and their replacement by scabs? Yeah, whoever's responsible for that workplace is extremely liable.
- jdm2212 4y ago
  Where does that article describe Baldwin having a day-to-day management role?
tengbretson 4y ago
Blanks are not safe to point at people either, so the point is moot.
- jdm2212 4y ago
  As I replied below... > Baldwin did not shoot someone at short range with a blank round. By all public accounts, he handled the gun in a manner consistent with the scene's directions and safety information provided by the crew. He's no more responsible for making sure a gun is safe than he is for making sure the electrical circuits for the scene lighting won't short out.
  - barelysapient 4y ago
    Anytime you're holding a gun, its incumbent on you handle it safely. Period.
    - jdm2212 4y ago
      You can make up whatever rules you want and say "Period" afterward for emphasis. That doesn't make those rules real or relevant to how movies are made.
philwelch 4y ago
Even a blank round can cause injury or death at short range. At any rate, safe weapons handling means you do, in fact, check every gun you pick up every time you pick it up.
- jdm2212 4y ago
  Baldwin did not shoot someone at short range with a blank round. By all public accounts, he handled the gun in a manner consistent with the scene's directions and safety information provided by the crew. He's no more responsible for making sure a gun is safe than he is for making sure the electrical circuits for the scene lighting won't short out.
  - philwelch 4y ago
    No, he shot the person to death with a live round. He picked up a loaded revolver, pointed it at another human being, and pulled the trigger. That other human being is now dead as a consequence of his actions. Even if he didn’t know it was loaded, which seems likely, there was no excuse for him pulling the trigger.
    - jdm2212 4y ago
      If he was driving a car on set, and someone cut the brake lines so he ran over a production assistant, a "human being is now dead as a consequence of his actions". But that doesn't make it his responsibility to check the brake lines every time he gets behind the wheel of a new car.
      - _-david-_ 4y ago
        We don't know somebody else cut the brakes. Baldwin allegedly had real bullets on his belt. If Baldwin cut the brakes in his car and then ran somebody over it would be his fault.
        deleted 4y ago
        [deleted]

cwmma 4y ago

Is he being charged because he pulled the trigger or because he was the producer who fired the previous armorer?

fuzzylightbulb 4y ago
"The charges related to Baldwin seem to involve his specific act in handling the weapon, rather than his broader role as one of the film’s producers." https://www.vox.com/culture/23562397/rust-shooting-alec-baldwin-involuntary-manslaughter-charge https://www.vox.com/culture/23562397/rust-shooting-alec-bald...
- trynewideas 4y ago
  > "He was the actor that pulled the trigger so certainly he's charged as an actor but also as a producer," (said New Mexico First Judicial District Attorney Mary Carmack-Altwies, who spoke with CNN on Thursday). > "He also had a duty to make sure that the set was safe and we know from our investigation that there had been accidental misfires prior to this." https://www.kcra.com/article/alec-baldwin-rust-charges-why/42581449 https://www.kcra.com/article/alec-baldwin-rust-charges-why/4...

Imnimo 4y ago

Wasn't the gun supposed to be loaded, just with blanks?

barelysapient 4y ago
With what I've seen about the scene they were shooting, the gun should have been empty. When gun scenes are short with blanks, its not the practice to have a camera and person directly on the other end of the gun. Instead they are to the side or much further away. That's because, even with blanks its possible for bits of metal to still leave the gun at high speed.