3 ms·

Is this really that surprising? When my team is hiring software engineers, we're almost never looking for a specific level of engineer to fill some sort of spe

Is this really that surprising? When my team is hiring software engineers, we're almost never looking for a specific level of engineer to fill some sort of specifically-defined role. We're just looking for smart people at every level. We'll hire new college grads and we'll hire senior engineers with 20 years experience. We decide what level to place someone at based on the interview and background, then make them a corresponding offer. While we obviously would like to have a balance of senior and junior people, we're not going to say "OK this time we're specifically looking for a level 4 SWE, no more, no less." It seems like the law was designed with the assumption that companies always know in advance exactly what the person will do and exactly what quality of work will be expected. That's not realistic on software, though, where the work is constantly changing, individual projects are maybe a few months and then it's hard to predict what people will be working on beyond that. You just need to find the best people you can, at a reasonable balance of levels. Maybe the answer is that companies should be posting one job req for each level that they're willing to hire at? But what if you only have one headcount to fill, and you would really like to fill it with a rockstar senior engineer but you know more realistically it's probably going to be a promising junior? I suppose you can post the several different levels anyway and then take them all down once you've hired someone? But then will Yahoo write an article saying you're doing this to work around the law and violating it in spirit? (Disclaimer: I'm not a hiring manager, I'm just an engineer who interviews a lot of people. But I never understood how this law was supposed to apply to our industry.)

nerdponx 4y ago
> Maybe the answer is that companies should be posting one job req for each level that they're willing to hire at? From the perspective of an employee and applicant, I think this is completely reasonable. It also gives me a sense of the seniority and pay structure, which helps me make a slightly more informed decision about whether I will ever get a raise or if I'll have to quit and get a new job to get a raise.
sgerenser 4y ago
I actually mostly agree with this, and Netflix does seem to be a bit of an outlier because they pay all cash (whereas companies that have large stock components would end up listing a much narrower range since the law only requires disclosing base salary). OTOH, I still think the 90K on the low end still seems disingenuous, is anyone at Netflix making that low of a salary in a senior engineering position? According to levels.fyi, an L3 (entry-level) Netflix SW engineer makes an average of $205K base, and these job postings specifically say either L4 or L5.
- kentonv 4y ago
  Oh, if the posting specifically says L4 or L5 then I don't understand the broad salary range. Unless maybe it's a worldwide remote position with wildly different pay depending on location?
welshwelsh 4y ago
Just be completely transparent with your compensation policy. Copy-paste whatever internal logic you use to determine salary into the posting, that should follow the spirit of the law. "Compensation policy: We're open to hiring at a range of experience levels. Our junior engineers make $90-100k. The difference between $90k and $100k is whether or not they have a degree, whether they demonstrate proficiency in our specific tech stack, and whether they have previous professional experience. We define a junior engineer as someone who has less than 1 year of professional software engineering experience. We pay a $10k premium to junior engineers living in the following high cost of living areas: SF, NYC, .... Our mid-level engineers make $120-140k ... ... Click Here to see a full list of all our employees and how much they make" It's not that hard. Many companies have privacy policies that are many pages long, surely they can put the same amount of effort and detail into their public compensation policies.
- everforward 4y ago
  I think this just shifts the uncertainty. You'll know what the pay is for each role, now they just won't tell you which role until you're done interviewing. You'll have Junior 1-5, Mid 1-5, Senior 1-5. During interviews, you'll be told you're interviewing for Junior 4 - Mid 3, and they'll tell you which level you're at once you're done interviewing. I.e. instead of knowing which role you're applying for and not knowing what the pay range is, you'll know the pay ranges and not know the role.

nerdponx 4y ago

> Maybe the answer is that companies should be posting one job req for each level that they're willing to hire at? From the perspective of an employee and applicant, I think this is completely reasonable. It also gives me a sense of the seniority and pay structure, which helps me make a slightly more informed decision about whether I will ever get a raise or if I'll have to quit and get a new job to get a raise.

sgerenser 4y ago

I actually mostly agree with this, and Netflix does seem to be a bit of an outlier because they pay all cash (whereas companies that have large stock components would end up listing a much narrower range since the law only requires disclosing base salary). OTOH, I still think the 90K on the low end still seems disingenuous, is anyone at Netflix making that low of a salary in a senior engineering position? According to levels.fyi, an L3 (entry-level) Netflix SW engineer makes an average of $205K base, and these job postings specifically say either L4 or L5.

kentonv 4y ago
Oh, if the posting specifically says L4 or L5 then I don't understand the broad salary range. Unless maybe it's a worldwide remote position with wildly different pay depending on location?

welshwelsh 4y ago

Just be completely transparent with your compensation policy. Copy-paste whatever internal logic you use to determine salary into the posting, that should follow the spirit of the law. "Compensation policy: We're open to hiring at a range of experience levels. Our junior engineers make $90-100k. The difference between $90k and $100k is whether or not they have a degree, whether they demonstrate proficiency in our specific tech stack, and whether they have previous professional experience. We define a junior engineer as someone who has less than 1 year of professional software engineering experience. We pay a $10k premium to junior engineers living in the following high cost of living areas: SF, NYC, .... Our mid-level engineers make $120-140k ... ... Click Here to see a full list of all our employees and how much they make" It's not that hard. Many companies have privacy policies that are many pages long, surely they can put the same amount of effort and detail into their public compensation policies.

everforward 4y ago
I think this just shifts the uncertainty. You'll know what the pay is for each role, now they just won't tell you which role until you're done interviewing. You'll have Junior 1-5, Mid 1-5, Senior 1-5. During interviews, you'll be told you're interviewing for Junior 4 - Mid 3, and they'll tell you which level you're at once you're done interviewing. I.e. instead of knowing which role you're applying for and not knowing what the pay range is, you'll know the pay ranges and not know the role.