8 ms·

I was told I'd never be a programmer because I didn't get good marks in math and physics, that was sixteen years ago. Let's kill the myth. I can't see any reas

by cturner 15y ago

I was told I'd never be a programmer because I didn't get good marks in math and physics, that was sixteen years ago. Let's kill the myth. I can't see any reason why being genuinely good at math is more important to effective programming than being good at chemistry (layers and sequence), biology (complex systems) or languages (building meaning from abstract or incomplete signals). You do not need to be good at late high-school math to understand Big-O. I suspect people who are good at or passionate about math are far more likely to stroke their ego with premature optimisation. Also, there's a vast difference between aptitude for maths, and performing well in maths tests. Attention to detail, regard for the education system, interest in the topic all play a part. > There is evidence women avoid computing because > they are intolerant of geeks I see a different pattern that goes in mostly the reverse direction. Young men are a strange bunch, but young nerds in particular tend to act bizarrely towards women, and are therefore undesirable to be around. It can be more effort to deal with someone bizarre (has feelings but is draining) than someone who is just a bastard (quickly tell them to get stuffed). If you sense a concentration of draining people - avoid!

yummyfajitas 15y ago
I can't see any reason why being genuinely good at math is more importnat to effective programming... I would strongly suspect that just as math and CS ability are correlated, so would math and chemistry. Biology less so, since biology is mostly just memorizing (at least for the first 3-4 years of college). Anyway, I cited math data mainly because it's so widely studied. I get so many downvotes when I discuss this topic with data that I'm not even going to attempt to write about stuff I have no readily available data on. I see a different pattern that goes in mostly the reverse direction. [...] young nerds [...] are therefore undesirable to be around. Um, that's not the reverse direction. That's the same direction as what I said: women avoid computing because they are intolerant of geeks. Note that young nerds also often act "bizarrely" towards men and each other. I certainly did before I learned to pass. But the claim of the author of the studies I cited is that women are less tolerant of "bizarre" behavior.
- cturner 15y ago
  > I get so many downvotes when I discuss this topic with data It's a bit like the flying spaghetti monster book where they correlate the decline of piracy with global warming. You need to present data, and then also provide a link between it and the point you're making. I dispute the strong link between math and programming. I accept your correction in that we're making the same point about young men. What I should have said is that the way you phrase it makes it seem like it's women that initiate the pattern. I don't think that's so. Although perhaps you could go back further and ask, what made the men neurotic in the first place, was it cruel rejection or bullying by prom queens - no idea. I just found the phrasing backwards.
  - yummyfajitas 15y ago
    You need to present data, and then also provide a link between it and the point you're making. I dispute the strong link between math and programming. Fair enough. I thought the link was obvious enough, but you are keeping me honest. I have no data proving this link myself. However, I just messaged a friend of mine who occasionally dabbles in math-ed stuff. He recommends these (paywalled) papers as starting points: http://dl.acm.org/citation.cfm?id=1500963&dl=ACM&coll=DL&CFID=61707367&CFTOKEN=65819938 http://dl.acm.org/citation.cfm?id=1500963&dl=ACM&col... http://dl.acm.org/citation.cfm?id=1047480 http://dl.acm.org/citation.cfm?id=1047480 And an older paper "Identification of Computer Programming Aptitude", by Alspaugh (one of the early works). I'll asked him to give me copies next time I see him in person (I'm no longer an academic, so I can't access university libraries).
- cema 15y ago
  I would strongly suspect that just as math and CS ability are correlated, so would math and chemistry. I am not sure about that. In my experience, mathematics and chemistry were not noticeably correlated (either way). On the other hand, such ostensibly different subjects as mathematics and music were positively correlated. Experience is anecdotal but includes math classes in high school, applied math in college, and computer science in grad school.
- roguecoder 15y ago
youngnerd112 15y ago
Sorry to be so brutally honest....but personally with women rejecting me everywhere in a downright rude manner as an undesirable nerd it is hard not to have a bias against them! Agreed that perhaps not all women are like that...but for one that is nice there is at least a hundred shallow bitches around!
- deleted 15y ago
  [deleted]
- jessedhillon 15y ago
  Assuming that you are commenting here because you favor the theory that women are inhibited in some way from being effective software engineers -- and that is why they are underrepresented: For women not to be represented in the population that practices software engineering indicates some intrinsic flaw or inability with them -- but for one that is nice there is at least a hundred shallow bitches around -- But for you to fail to achieve representation in the population which can acquire a mate or find a willing sex partner is ALSO a flaw with women! Brilliant! Heads: you win; tails: women lose.
  - youngnerd112 15y ago
    It was in response to the parents comment "but young nerds in particular tend to act bizarrely towards women, and are therefore undesirable to be around." and a personal explanation of why I as a young nerd is slowly developing this kind of a bias.
    - cturner 15y ago
      If you're having trouble of the sort of ratios you're talking about, you're doing something that alienates people. That doesn't have to be the end of things, because if you work at it eventually it'll change. You can't change other people. Focus on the things you can affect, like finding ways to make yourself a more relaxed and relaxing person to talk to. Some people are trying to give you feedback in other parts of this thread. Much of it is not constructive, but some is. But you seem to be focussed on reiterating your points rather than taking it on. Work out how you can be more open to feedback. Find someone who will give you honest feedback. Distinguish between people who give good, direct feedback and people who get off by demeaning you. I assume you created this account as a throwaway because you had an idea what you were saying would be controversial but this stuff is troubling you you and you wanted to talk about it. Good move. Now take the next step.

by cturner 15y ago

yummyfajitas 15y ago

I can't see any reason why being genuinely good at math is more importnat to effective programming... I would strongly suspect that just as math and CS ability are correlated, so would math and chemistry. Biology less so, since biology is mostly just memorizing (at least for the first 3-4 years of college). Anyway, I cited math data mainly because it's so widely studied. I get so many downvotes when I discuss this topic with data that I'm not even going to attempt to write about stuff I have no readily available data on. I see a different pattern that goes in mostly the reverse direction. [...] young nerds [...] are therefore undesirable to be around. Um, that's not the reverse direction. That's the same direction as what I said: women avoid computing because they are intolerant of geeks. Note that young nerds also often act "bizarrely" towards men and each other. I certainly did before I learned to pass. But the claim of the author of the studies I cited is that women are less tolerant of "bizarre" behavior.

cturner 15y ago
> I get so many downvotes when I discuss this topic with data It's a bit like the flying spaghetti monster book where they correlate the decline of piracy with global warming. You need to present data, and then also provide a link between it and the point you're making. I dispute the strong link between math and programming. I accept your correction in that we're making the same point about young men. What I should have said is that the way you phrase it makes it seem like it's women that initiate the pattern. I don't think that's so. Although perhaps you could go back further and ask, what made the men neurotic in the first place, was it cruel rejection or bullying by prom queens - no idea. I just found the phrasing backwards.
- yummyfajitas 15y ago
  You need to present data, and then also provide a link between it and the point you're making. I dispute the strong link between math and programming. Fair enough. I thought the link was obvious enough, but you are keeping me honest. I have no data proving this link myself. However, I just messaged a friend of mine who occasionally dabbles in math-ed stuff. He recommends these (paywalled) papers as starting points: http://dl.acm.org/citation.cfm?id=1500963&dl=ACM&coll=DL&CFID=61707367&CFTOKEN=65819938 http://dl.acm.org/citation.cfm?id=1500963&dl=ACM&col... http://dl.acm.org/citation.cfm?id=1047480 http://dl.acm.org/citation.cfm?id=1047480 And an older paper "Identification of Computer Programming Aptitude", by Alspaugh (one of the early works). I'll asked him to give me copies next time I see him in person (I'm no longer an academic, so I can't access university libraries).
cema 15y ago
I would strongly suspect that just as math and CS ability are correlated, so would math and chemistry. I am not sure about that. In my experience, mathematics and chemistry were not noticeably correlated (either way). On the other hand, such ostensibly different subjects as mathematics and music were positively correlated. Experience is anecdotal but includes math classes in high school, applied math in college, and computer science in grad school.
roguecoder 15y ago

youngnerd112 15y ago

Sorry to be so brutally honest....but personally with women rejecting me everywhere in a downright rude manner as an undesirable nerd it is hard not to have a bias against them! Agreed that perhaps not all women are like that...but for one that is nice there is at least a hundred shallow bitches around!

deleted 15y ago
[deleted]
jessedhillon 15y ago
Assuming that you are commenting here because you favor the theory that women are inhibited in some way from being effective software engineers -- and that is why they are underrepresented: For women not to be represented in the population that practices software engineering indicates some intrinsic flaw or inability with them -- but for one that is nice there is at least a hundred shallow bitches around -- But for you to fail to achieve representation in the population which can acquire a mate or find a willing sex partner is ALSO a flaw with women! Brilliant! Heads: you win; tails: women lose.
- youngnerd112 15y ago
  It was in response to the parents comment "but young nerds in particular tend to act bizarrely towards women, and are therefore undesirable to be around." and a personal explanation of why I as a young nerd is slowly developing this kind of a bias.
  - cturner 15y ago
    If you're having trouble of the sort of ratios you're talking about, you're doing something that alienates people. That doesn't have to be the end of things, because if you work at it eventually it'll change. You can't change other people. Focus on the things you can affect, like finding ways to make yourself a more relaxed and relaxing person to talk to. Some people are trying to give you feedback in other parts of this thread. Much of it is not constructive, but some is. But you seem to be focussed on reiterating your points rather than taking it on. Work out how you can be more open to feedback. Find someone who will give you honest feedback. Distinguish between people who give good, direct feedback and people who get off by demeaning you. I assume you created this account as a throwaway because you had an idea what you were saying would be controversial but this stuff is troubling you you and you wanted to talk about it. Good move. Now take the next step.