6 ms·

This take is a bit basic.

by 314 4y ago

ad404b8a372f2b9 4y ago
It's not verbose but it seems pretty self-evident to me. In Europe most people speak only the local language and little English, if you don't speak the language you're not integrated. Your local businesses won't speak English, your baker, the cab drivers, the people working the public transport, at your local convenience store, the government officials, the deliverymen, your child's school-teacher, other parents at school, 90% of the people you will cross path with on the street, most written and recorded information about local events...
- petodo 4y ago
  > Your local businesses won't speak English, your baker, the cab drivers, the people working the public transport, at your local convenience store, the government officials, the deliverymen, your child's school-teacher, other parents at school, 90% of the people you will cross path with on the street, most written and recorded information about local events... And why would I wanna speak with baker, cab driver, public transport workers, convenience store workers, deliverymen, etc.? I don't speak to these people even back home, I just buy what I want in shop, put it on checkout and pay, only thing you need to learn is answer question about loyalty card or plastic bag and the way you wanna pay (by card), all you need to learn is two words "No" to plastic bag, show your loyalty card if you wanna use it and say "card" and show it so you can pay. I can order taxi in the app, get in, say greeting and sit there until arrival. Public transport workers are closed in their cabin and you should NOT speak to them. Deliveryman will just call you he is on the way, if you are at home and to come downstairs and you just sign or pick up your package, sdo you just need to say "OK, I'm home" to phone. Other parents in school not speaking English are honestly not worth speaking (similar with obese people since that shows a lot about them), because if you don't speak English it shows bigger ignorance than not being able to speak local obscure language as English speaking foreigner. School teachers tend to be old, so yes, you could hit language barrier there and would have to deal with that with some English speaking parent. 90% people on the street won't speak English, but for sure majority of adults in productive age will at least in big cities where foreigners move (and in Scandinavia you could hit even that 90% probably). Most written information online can be easily translated with built in translator. Honestly only place where you need to speak local language is communication with gov officials since those often tend to be PITA/xenophobic projecting their own complexes since successful people won't work for gov, it's usually job for lazy people who don't mind lower pay and were most likely also lazy to learn English (but to be fair to them, many of them speak English as well).
  - ad404b8a372f2b9 4y ago
    90% of people on the street won't speak English in big European cities, no. I'm sure you can find some cities where they do like Stockholm, but that's the exception not the rule. The rest of the things you said only confirm you have no intention to integrate and to be a pleasant addition to the community you live in. Your comments about people who don't speak English, and your attitude towards local workers are pretty vile.
    - petodo 4y ago
      > 90% of people on the street won't speak English in big European cities, no. And who chose that percentage as some holy grail or something important? I'd say in big European cities at least 40-60% of people in productive age (18-60) will speak at least basic English, though not sure how is it relevant, even if only 1/3 of people in street spoke English it would be plenty. > The rest of the things you said only confirm you have no intention to integrate and to be a pleasant addition to the community you live in. The rest of the things have nothing really to do with integration since I behave same even in my home country, I don't see reason to wate my time with small talks and people doing their jobs, I have better things to do like spending time with my kids or rest. Not even sure what's pleasant addition and what's the community, those are foreign words for me, I am independent adult who doesn't feel urge to be part of some community as some young childless kid looking for their place in the word. > Your comments about people who don't speak English, and your attitude towards local workers are pretty EFFICIENT/TIME SAVING. FTFY
      - BlueTemplar 4y ago
        That community is the one where your kids will grow up and adopt at least some if not most of the values of. You are deliberately deciding to exclude yourself from it, which is likely to have bad consequences for you and your kids (since you won't be competent to help them).
        petodo 4y ago
        For starters I speak local language of country where I live and this dumb discussion is hypothetical when I defend people unwilling to learn local language, because they can get by with English which is perfectly fine and I have urge to have small talk with other people while they work even in my home country. But yes excluding myself from sheep in whatever community whatever language they speak whether my mother tongue, English or language I don't speak, is perfectly fine with me, I have no urge to belong somewhere to some category you can put me for your convenience and that's how I (will) raise my kids to be independend and have critical thinking instead just doing same as everyone else just because everyone (dumb) is doing it. Not sure why would I be not competent to help my kids because I don't do same things like everyone else with need to belong to some community, they seem to be doing fine already in elementary school.
vintermann 4y ago
I suspect that most people who proclaim sentiments like that in this thread (of course, just learn Japanese!) do not speak a second language at a conversational level at all. That people grossly underestimate how hard it is to learn languages, is why Duolingo is in business. And Berlitz, Pimsleur, and Rosetta Stone before them. The guy didn't say he spoke _no_ Japanese. He said he spoke _little_ Japanese. And for an adult native English speaker, who probably could not get very good social immersion even if he wanted, that is not surprising. No, not even after 10 years. Two of my friends were into Japanese culture in a big way when I was young in the 90s. Both watched a lot of anime, obviously. Both had excellent second language (English) grades and at least decent third language (French) grades, so it's safe to say both had above average talent for language acquisition. Both went to study Japanese at university. Both moved to Japan. Both struggled with the language.
- fomine3 4y ago
  Isn't it opposite? IMO English natives tend to think that English should be okay in everywhere. European multilingual may think "just learn Japanese" but it's harder compared to european language for europeans

This take is a bit basic.

by 314 4y ago

This take is a bit basic.

It's not verbose but it seems pretty self-evident to me. In Europe most people speak only the local language and little English, if you don't speak the language you're not integrated. Your local businesses won't speak English, your baker, the cab drivers, the people working the public transport, at your local convenience store, the government officials, the deliverymen, your child's school-teacher, other parents at school, 90% of the people you will cross path with on the street, most written and recorded information about local events...

petodo 4y ago
> Your local businesses won't speak English, your baker, the cab drivers, the people working the public transport, at your local convenience store, the government officials, the deliverymen, your child's school-teacher, other parents at school, 90% of the people you will cross path with on the street, most written and recorded information about local events... And why would I wanna speak with baker, cab driver, public transport workers, convenience store workers, deliverymen, etc.? I don't speak to these people even back home, I just buy what I want in shop, put it on checkout and pay, only thing you need to learn is answer question about loyalty card or plastic bag and the way you wanna pay (by card), all you need to learn is two words "No" to plastic bag, show your loyalty card if you wanna use it and say "card" and show it so you can pay. I can order taxi in the app, get in, say greeting and sit there until arrival. Public transport workers are closed in their cabin and you should NOT speak to them. Deliveryman will just call you he is on the way, if you are at home and to come downstairs and you just sign or pick up your package, sdo you just need to say "OK, I'm home" to phone. Other parents in school not speaking English are honestly not worth speaking (similar with obese people since that shows a lot about them), because if you don't speak English it shows bigger ignorance than not being able to speak local obscure language as English speaking foreigner. School teachers tend to be old, so yes, you could hit language barrier there and would have to deal with that with some English speaking parent. 90% people on the street won't speak English, but for sure majority of adults in productive age will at least in big cities where foreigners move (and in Scandinavia you could hit even that 90% probably). Most written information online can be easily translated with built in translator. Honestly only place where you need to speak local language is communication with gov officials since those often tend to be PITA/xenophobic projecting their own complexes since successful people won't work for gov, it's usually job for lazy people who don't mind lower pay and were most likely also lazy to learn English (but to be fair to them, many of them speak English as well).
- ad404b8a372f2b9 4y ago
  90% of people on the street won't speak English in big European cities, no. I'm sure you can find some cities where they do like Stockholm, but that's the exception not the rule. The rest of the things you said only confirm you have no intention to integrate and to be a pleasant addition to the community you live in. Your comments about people who don't speak English, and your attitude towards local workers are pretty vile.
  - petodo 4y ago
    > 90% of people on the street won't speak English in big European cities, no. And who chose that percentage as some holy grail or something important? I'd say in big European cities at least 40-60% of people in productive age (18-60) will speak at least basic English, though not sure how is it relevant, even if only 1/3 of people in street spoke English it would be plenty. > The rest of the things you said only confirm you have no intention to integrate and to be a pleasant addition to the community you live in. The rest of the things have nothing really to do with integration since I behave same even in my home country, I don't see reason to wate my time with small talks and people doing their jobs, I have better things to do like spending time with my kids or rest. Not even sure what's pleasant addition and what's the community, those are foreign words for me, I am independent adult who doesn't feel urge to be part of some community as some young childless kid looking for their place in the word. > Your comments about people who don't speak English, and your attitude towards local workers are pretty EFFICIENT/TIME SAVING. FTFY
    - BlueTemplar 4y ago
      That community is the one where your kids will grow up and adopt at least some if not most of the values of. You are deliberately deciding to exclude yourself from it, which is likely to have bad consequences for you and your kids (since you won't be competent to help them).
      - petodo 4y ago
        For starters I speak local language of country where I live and this dumb discussion is hypothetical when I defend people unwilling to learn local language, because they can get by with English which is perfectly fine and I have urge to have small talk with other people while they work even in my home country. But yes excluding myself from sheep in whatever community whatever language they speak whether my mother tongue, English or language I don't speak, is perfectly fine with me, I have no urge to belong somewhere to some category you can put me for your convenience and that's how I (will) raise my kids to be independend and have critical thinking instead just doing same as everyone else just because everyone (dumb) is doing it. Not sure why would I be not competent to help my kids because I don't do same things like everyone else with need to belong to some community, they seem to be doing fine already in elementary school.

vintermann 4y ago

I suspect that most people who proclaim sentiments like that in this thread (of course, just learn Japanese!) do not speak a second language at a conversational level at all. That people grossly underestimate how hard it is to learn languages, is why Duolingo is in business. And Berlitz, Pimsleur, and Rosetta Stone before them. The guy didn't say he spoke _no_ Japanese. He said he spoke _little_ Japanese. And for an adult native English speaker, who probably could not get very good social immersion even if he wanted, that is not surprising. No, not even after 10 years. Two of my friends were into Japanese culture in a big way when I was young in the 90s. Both watched a lot of anime, obviously. Both had excellent second language (English) grades and at least decent third language (French) grades, so it's safe to say both had above average talent for language acquisition. Both went to study Japanese at university. Both moved to Japan. Both struggled with the language.

fomine3 4y ago
Isn't it opposite? IMO English natives tend to think that English should be okay in everywhere. European multilingual may think "just learn Japanese" but it's harder compared to european language for europeans