9 ms·

> Any other person who lived in a country for a decade and can't converse in the language would be (rightfully imo) shamed for it. I'm German, living in Berlin

• randomluck040 4y ago
  In my opinion there are lots of external factors to it. I’m also German and we probably both know that especially lots of years back we could’ve set things up differently in terms of integration (which to some degree included learning the language).
• donw 4y ago
  If one can't bother learning the language of the country in which they live, any opinion one might have on that country can be safely discarded.
  • 314 4y ago
    This take is a bit basic.
    • ad404b8a372f2b9 4y ago
      It's not verbose but it seems pretty self-evident to me. In Europe most people speak only the local language and little English, if you don't speak the language you're not integrated. Your local businesses won't speak English, your baker, the cab drivers, the people working the public transport, at your local convenience store, the government officials, the deliverymen, your child's school-teacher, other parents at school, 90% of the people you will cross path with on the street, most written and recorded information about local events...
      • petodo 4y ago
        > Your local businesses won't speak English, your baker, the cab drivers, the people working the public transport, at your local convenience store, the government officials, the deliverymen, your child's school-teacher, other parents at school, 90% of the people you will cross path with on the street, most written and recorded information about local events... And why would I wanna speak with baker, cab driver, public transport workers, convenience store workers, deliverymen, etc.? I don't speak to these people even back home, I just buy what I want in shop, put it on checkout and pay, only thing you need to learn is answer question about loyalty card or plastic bag and the way you wanna pay (by card), all you need to learn is two words "No" to plastic bag, show your loyalty card if you wanna use it and say "card" and show it so you can pay. I can order taxi in the app, get in, say greeting and sit there until arrival. Public transport workers are closed in their cabin and you should NOT speak to them. Deliveryman will just call you he is on the way, if you are at home and to come downstairs and you just sign or pick up your package, sdo you just need to say "OK, I'm home" to phone. Other parents in school not speaking English are honestly not worth speaking (similar with obese people since that shows a lot about them), because if you don't speak English it shows bigger ignorance than not being able to speak local obscure language as English speaking foreigner. School teachers tend to be old, so yes, you could hit language barrier there and would have to deal with that with some English speaking parent. 90% people on the street won't speak English, but for sure majority of adults in productive age will at least in big cities where foreigners move (and in Scandinavia you could hit even that 90% probably). Most written information online can be easily translated with built in translator. Honestly only place where you need to speak local language is communication with gov officials since those often tend to be PITA/xenophobic projecting their own complexes since successful people won't work for gov, it's usually job for lazy people who don't mind lower pay and were most likely also lazy to learn English (but to be fair to them, many of them speak English as well).
        • ad404b8a372f2b9 4y ago
          90% of people on the street won't speak English in big European cities, no. I'm sure you can find some cities where they do like Stockholm, but that's the exception not the rule. The rest of the things you said only confirm you have no intention to integrate and to be a pleasant addition to the community you live in. Your comments about people who don't speak English, and your attitude towards local workers are pretty vile.
    • vintermann 4y ago
      I suspect that most people who proclaim sentiments like that in this thread (of course, just learn Japanese!) do not speak a second language at a conversational level at all. That people grossly underestimate how hard it is to learn languages, is why Duolingo is in business. And Berlitz, Pimsleur, and Rosetta Stone before them. The guy didn't say he spoke _no_ Japanese. He said he spoke _little_ Japanese. And for an adult native English speaker, who probably could not get very good social immersion even if he wanted, that is not surprising. No, not even after 10 years. Two of my friends were into Japanese culture in a big way when I was young in the 90s. Both watched a lot of anime, obviously. Both had excellent second language (English) grades and at least decent third language (French) grades, so it's safe to say both had above average talent for language acquisition. Both went to study Japanese at university. Both moved to Japan. Both struggled with the language.
      • fomine3 4y ago
        Isn't it opposite? IMO English natives tend to think that English should be okay in everywhere. European multilingual may think "just learn Japanese" but it's harder compared to european language for europeans
• hogepiyo 4y ago
  I've lived in Germany myself (NRW). Idk, from my experience it's cool if you're in the young professional tech bubble but when you step outside of that it didn't feel good to me personally. Going out into smaller towns / cities to me at least it rapidly became evident that you're missing something. Maybe I'm old fashioned or something. I still think there's something to be said for learning the local language (and c'mon if you've been there for 10 years, I'm sure you can pick it up). This even goes without saying it's Japan where the level of english is far worse than that in Germany (where honestly the standard of English isn't anything like that you find in Sweden / Norway)
  • sho_hn 4y ago
    > I still think there's something to be said for learning the local language Absolutely! I worked in South Korea myself for four years and did a year of Korean school in Berlin first to prepare, and then more tutoring and self-study in country. I wasn't particularly great at learning overall, but did get to survival levels of conversational and it definitely enhanced the experience and gave me a connection to last a lifetime. It's still a lot of fun to watch a Korean show now and be able to pick up on it when the subtitles are bad and miss all the cultural nuances of word and grammar choices, etc. I just think it's great when people discover that for themselves.
  • paganel 4y ago
    Especially as the guy was a journalist, he was supposed to go into "smaller towns / cities" and write about the people in there. Surprised though that the BBC hasn't put that as a requirement before sending him to Japan for a 10-year stint. Afaik The Economist requires of their potential correspondents that they know Chinese before posting them to China, and this is why many of their Chaguan China-focused editorials are really interesting (for example in the latest one [1] the Economist journalist takes a train ride before the Chinese New Year and talks with Chinese people with whom he shares the ride) [1] https://archive.is/85RX3 https://archive.is/85RX3
  • bradknowles 4y ago
    My wife and I lived almost eight years in Belgium. I learned enough French that I could get in trouble with cab drivers. And trust me, I really tried. But French is a language that just goes in one ear and out the other for me. Unlike Spanish or Italian. My wife learned enough business French that she was able to survive, but never became fluent. There are just some people who cannot learn the local language, no matter how hard you may want to force them to do so or how long they've been living in that country. And I think it's a huge mistake to try to force them, or to judge them poorly for being unable to warp their mind around something that is a fundamentally alien concept for them.
• noch 4y ago
  > They live full lives, and I couldn't care less about their German levels. They do enough good things with their time they put their energy into instead. What an odd mindset. Anecdotally, prior generations of Europeans (and expatriates) valued being multilingual. Having a working knowledge of German, Italian, French, English was fun, valuable, and normal especially when doing business in diverse countries and with diverse peoples. That generation even taught us that "When in Rome, do as the Romans do." I guess that principle is no longer a thing.
  • petodo 4y ago
    > Having a working knowledge of German, Italian, French, English was fun, valuable, and normal especially when doing business in diverse countries and with diverse peoples. That's nice with all these very similar languages using latin alphabet and now try it with Chinese characters and tones in China or at least kanji/hiragana without tones in Japan. Characters are huge barrier when learning the language, because you don't see words to memorize everywhere you look, you see just bunch of strokes. I really wish Chinese switched completely to pinyin as Vietnamese did (and Chinese intended, but didn't finish), it would remove huge barrier in communication (and also tehcnologically wise, after all most of the Chinese already write pinyin anyway on smartphones/computers, which just transcribe their pinyin back to characters) and people would realize Chinese is actually very simple language, where you don't have tenses, plural, etc. As someone speaking English/German and my other two mother languages I can still understand some Italian, French or Dutch (which is basically English mixed with German by drunk sailor), because of how similar these languages are, so picking up some of them would be very easy compared to Chinese/Japanese (well at least Japanese has much more loaned words from English than Chinese).
    • amrocha 4y ago
      Do you actually speak Chinese or Japanese? Because either of those languages with phonetic characters would be a nightmare imo. The characters actually make it easier to learn the language imo, and anyone who claims otherwise hasn't actually tried to learn seriously
• tpm 4y ago
  But they do speak English? You can live with that comfortably in Germany and in Berlin especially, probably much less so in many other countries.
• lynx23 4y ago
  I am with OP, if someone is living in a foreign country for around 10 years and still dont speak the local language, that is displaying a certain disregard for the country they decided to life in. As others have replied, maybe that is less of an issue in a certain tech-related bubble, but... I have seen foreigners working in customer service who dont speak the local language sufficiently. People like you maybe expect the customer to speak english such that these people can fullfill the job? I don't.
• haspok 4y ago
  Are your friends journalists whose job is literally to understand and translate what is happening around them? There is a guy working for the BBC in Budapest, Hungary, who learned to speak Hungarian quite well in the past ~3 decades. That shows dedication and enthusiasm, because Hungarian is one of the most useless languages to learn (in terms of the number of people you can speak with). Compared to that, learning Japanese even on a basic level is a no brainer... if you happen to live there for a decade!
  • vintermann 4y ago
    The US State Department classifies Japanese as a category IV language, "Super hard languages", languages which are exceptionally difficult for native English speakers. They estimate that you need 88 weeks, or 2200 class hours, to reach professional working level in it. That's if you're young, well-educated and very motivated. By comparison, they estimate Romanian, Swedish and Spanish take 24-30 weeks, or 600-750 class hours. Ten years is not much to just "pick up" Japanese, unless you're an exceptional linguistic talent.
    • astrange 4y ago
      That's including reading and writing skills, presumably. Spoken Japanese is not a hard language IMO. Reading and writing it without a dictionary on hand is much more difficult.
    • nequo 4y ago
      I can’t help but think that the interaction between you and parent is based on a misunderstanding. By “no brainer,” I think parent didn’t mean that Japanese is easier than Hungarian but that Japanese is much more useful than Hungarian in that you can speak it with around 10 times more people on Earth.
• trompetenaccoun 4y ago
  Berlin is full of people with attitudes like that (both local and foreign), and that's part of the reason why the city is in such a sorry state. It's funny, in addition to those expats who only speak American/British you get a ton of immigrants who speak neither English nor German in a way that any sort of meaningful conversation would be possible. But it doesn't matter because no one cares, not even the government. And then every other week in a moment of brief clarity, some of them wonder why nothing works, from mail delivery over construction to even just holding an election. In summary: AchBerlin.jpg
  • mvcatsifma 4y ago
    Amsterdam is like that, maybe just a bit less dysfunctional. I think it's a matter of respect and decency to learn the language of the country you live in.
  • pell 4y ago
    >And then every other week in a moment of brief clarity, some of them wonder why nothing works, from mail delivery over construction to even just holding an election. Berlin has plenty of issues. But I don't think the points you raised here are meaningfully connected with people's language skills.
    • luckylion 4y ago
      It's not about skill, it's about willingness to learn the language. It's about people not caring to learn the language and choosing to not be able to communicate with the people around them (except for that small bubble of their friends and the wait staff they expect to adapt to them). That willful ignorance to anything around you is typically not limited to learning the language, and I agree that it seems to be at the core of Berlin's identity. Berliners love it. I loathe it, and I'd prefer not to send money to Berlin each year so they can continue in their ways.
  • Tainnor 4y ago
    That seems rather confused. The circle of English-speaking expats doesn't really intersect much with the circle of people responsible for local politics, all of whom speak German. Blaming expats for the fact that Berlin's politicians are incompetent (which they are) makes no sense to me.
• eloisant 4y ago
  I don't think we should shame people for not speaking the language of the country they live in, however it's important to stress that you're really missing out when you don't speak the local language. It will vary a lot by countries, because in some of them (i.e. northern european countries) everyone will be able to speak English so not only you have less incentive to learn the local language but it will be very difficult to practice because the local won't make the effort of speaking to you in their language until you're good enough (which you're not because you lack practice). Speaking of Japan, as someone who lived there for a few years and reached a decent Japanese level, the English proficency of locals is not great so if you don't speak it you'll be stuck in your bubble of foreigners + Japanese people used to hang out with foreigners. I've seen a lot of foreigners not speaking Japanese after living several years in Japan, and most of them were wonderful people but they were like permanent visitors in the country they live which I thought was really too bad.
  • Nathanba 4y ago
    I think we should shame people for that: A nation is like a big family. You're essentially saying that you don't think that you should be able to talk to your own family in their language.
    • rayiner 4y ago
      It’s not only that. It’s just more work communicating with someone in your non-native language. Especially in Japan where many people don’t speak English well. So you’re creating an additional burden on the people around you. And that absolutely should be shamed, especially when you’re talking about a society like Japan that places high value on individuals acting in ways that make things easier for people around them and society at large.
    • JBlue42 4y ago
      I don't think this sentiment would go over so well if I expressed it to people here on the West Coast of the US. Not to mention that there are people that will send their kids to bilingual schools for (and this is conjecture) either lefty political points or potential socio-economic reasons (dual language or Chinese immersion). I personally love learning languages and am that person that tries to learn a little bit and communicate wherever I go. I does seem to be a hot button issue here in the US. I think people have different expectations. You hear stories of immigrants from the early 20th century that would force their kids to only speak English so that they would get on well in society. It seems like a difficult topic here around heritage vs managing in a society, especially for kids.
• ubercore 4y ago
  I'm an American living in Norway, in a larger city (for Norway). It's hard to learn, because when I try my burgeoning Norwegian, they immediately switch to English. I don't blame them at all, but I see how someone speaking English could not learn Norwegian in 10 years and be very happy.
  • miroljub 4y ago
    That's because you are visibly American. If you looked more like a southerner, you'd have much better, they wouldn't switch to English. On the other hand, they wouldn't even speak a Norwegian to you.
    • ubercore 4y ago
      I don't think it's looks, it's accent. Often someone will start a conversation with me in Norwegian before I've spoken, then switch when I answer. Granted, My Norwegian is not great yet (A2/B1 level), but it still definitely makes it harder to practice and learn here.
  • radiator 4y ago
    You could answer their English in Norwegian, or even some other language, e.g. French. If you have started the conversation in Norwegian, they should not assume you can speak English anyway.
    • ubercore 4y ago
      True, but politeness feels like continuing in English, because I have no idea if they care to struggle through a conversation with me, and asking people that 5 times through the course of every day starts to wear me down.
      • Tainnor 4y ago
        Yeah you have to get over the "politeness" hurdle if you want to seriously learn a language. When I go to Spain, I will always try to speak Spanish and if they reply in English (which they often do because I make mistakes and/or have an accent), I just keep replying in Spanish. That may be seen as "rude" or inefficient by some (although others probably appreciate the effort), but it's really the only way you can keep making progress. (Of course, if it really gets too complicated you can still switch - but usually people switch way before they've reached the end of their skills.)
• rayiner 4y ago
  There is a good reason: not being antisocial to the people in the country you are visiting. Most Germans speak English, sure, but dealing with someone that doesn’t speak your native language is incrementally harder and your friend is externalizing that cost onto everyone he interacts with.
• insane_dreamer 4y ago
  But (I'm assuming) they're not journalists whose _job_ it is to _understand_ and report on events in Germany. So I think the OP's critique is valid in that context. Edit: Also, you can get by perfectly without knowing the local language in some cities on the continent, such as Berlin (Stockholm, Copenhagen, Oslo would be others). That is not true of Tokyo unless you're staying in an expat bubble. I spent 6 years in Beijing, and you had the expats who didn't know Chinese and all lived in one section of the city where you could get by on English alone, but that section most definitely did not represent the rest of China or provide a deep understanding of the country and its people.
• Tainnor 4y ago
  > I'm German, living in Berlin, and have wonderful friends who fit that description. They live full lives, and I couldn't care less about their German levels. They do enough good things with their time they put their energy into instead. I know many people like that too (also in Berlin), and they usually get stressed out whenever they have to deal with their landlord, or any government agency, etc. In addition, there are still areas even in Berlin where the baker or shopkeeper will not speak English well enough. Finding doctors could also prove more difficult, and so on. And what if you have children at some point and they go to school? Unless you can afford some fancy private school, everything will be in German. Sure, you can get by without German for a while - especially if you have friends who can deal with certain things for you. But you'll just really be very dependent on others and their goodwill instead of being in charge of your own life.
• worik 4y ago
  Your wonderful friends are not reporting on German society back home. (An assumption I know) I agree it is outrageous that the BBC correspondent could not speak Japanese