5 ms·

Telling me to "chill out" and belittling my belief that the web is distinct does not demonstrate good faith on your part. I'd be happy to discuss why I think ab

Telling me to "chill out" and belittling my belief that the web is distinct does not demonstrate good faith on your part. I'd be happy to discuss why I think abandoning the web & hypertext as a common interchange is anti-human & beastly, but you don't seem interested in discussion or exploration. You've spent your time tearing me down & spreading casual sleight & disdain for the only successful online connected information space humanity has made. I don't feel like any kind of conversation here is possible. You have soundly refused to entertain the idea that perhaps the web has value or is distinct or improved over apps. You seem to only value apps & see nothing wrong with supplanting a rich connected standards-based information space with a bunch of pixels being shoved in people's faces. That's your perogative I guess, but if we aren't willing to see the other's values there's not much discussion really possible. I stand by my stance that throwing away interoperable information standards like html is anti-human. I continue to find the web to be far above everything else, far more adaptable & flexible than any other computing medium. You out of hand reject view source, but to me, it is an alive & powerful capability, that lets us explore, extend, & adapt these amazing online systems we run across. There is a huge wide ecosystem of web extensions, that people seem to care quite a lot about based on the many discussions happening here on HN, based on download count, and what Flutter is proposing is an extreme existential threat to that user-agency, which is powered 100% by the "view-source" capability you have given not the smallest iota of respect to, have said is worthless. I'm not sure how, given the evidence provided by the countless extensions people use and love, you could claim something so callous & make such belittling remarks. I've tutored a number of newcombers to computer science & programming via some web scripting, modifying the online experiences they were already having, by asking them for something about a site that annoys them, and then building a userscript to improve or address; it's a problem-oriented way to understand programming & the web medium. This has enormous value, is a pro-human engagement that the web shines at & makes possible; it's instantly gratifying to see we can work with the computer, work with what is, shape it. There is, for example, https://malleable.systems https://malleable.systems , dedicated to this virtue of modifyability. Where-as in apps the kind of cruel cold hard "pixel perfect precision" & top-down ownership-by-corporation is the anti-human basis most work is executed under. To me, this is a sucking void of value, a bleak sad world, far less than the interoperable places of information we ought have, and a massive step back. From your current stance, there doesn't seem to be any possibility you might be willing to consider any of the virtues I think are important. You've picked a very narrow set of values you will recognize, and disregarded outside principles & values. I'm not sure how we can converse about this & make progress, given that you won't permit nor acknowledge any of my values or beliefs, give no credence to web extensions nor systems with viewable source. I have at least recognized some of the expedience, the desires of app developers to have their control & speed; I just think it must be a complement to other things, & not total. Your views have totally rejected the web, for what feels to me like a largely egocentric set of values/priorities. I just wish this platform would not be on the web, if it has such savage abandon in disregarding the interoperable base values & virtues that have, so far, defined the web. Flutter is standing up to be the next anti-inter-operable Flash, it's own weird corporate-controlled antii-user penitentiary within the web, and that is for sure a horror & damaging. (I do not believe I have ever been on the slack? My password manager does not have any such logins nor do I recall joining.)

satvikpendem 4y ago
My "chill out" comment was not related to your thoughts on the DOM, it was due to your use of very extreme language to explain things that did not seem to merit such extremity. I linked "anti-human" above but I was able to find multitudinous other comments with words like "repulsive," "reprehensible," "cruel," "shitty," and so on. Your comment history seems filled with vitriol, and it is why I made such a comment. This is probably why your Twitter account is now suspended, on which I used to talk to you before but it appears not recently. It was a DC Tech Slack if I recall correctly by the way, you had some extreme opinions there too and used the same vitriolic language that then got you kicked out. It seems like the same pattern persists, where you were using the words above but then people got sick of it and then you tried to argue that you were commenting in good faith, or that others weren't (even though they perfectly were). Personally, I agree with you on the role of the DOM, but again, I do not see it as religiously as you do, in my view it is just a technology. I like to read content, sure, and that's where I see the value of the DOM. I also use quite a lot of browser extensions and would not like them to go away, such as adblockers. I don't see them going away though, the DOM is simply too entrenched for content. However, at the same time, I like fast and rich applications. I do not like using Electron, which is part of the very same web technology you so like. I would rather not have to pull up a browser for every single app I use. Wasting pointless CPU cycles and gigabytes of RAM, now that is anti-human, not to mention anti-Earth, since they consume more electricity and give off more greenhouse gas emissions by doing so, simply to interpret Javascript in a virtual machine. That is why I like stuff like Flutter. I don't particularly care that users can't modify it, because, again, as an app, there is nothing you necessarily need to modify, and on mobile and desktop anyways, people can't "inspect element" and change things. It provides me with a fast, unified programming interface on which I can build apps. You can still have interoperability with stuff like that, such as Mastodon which uses federation, even though users again can't directly modify the source code, at least on their mobile apps. Your opinion is fine, liminally. I even agree with parts of it. It becomes quite annoying to hear though when it becomes almost religious in the nature of your belief, where for those you disagree, you start spewing vitriol instead. It is especially grating when you are there on almost every Flutter thread on HN, and elsewhere. If you really want people to discuss with you in good faith, I recommend you stop using words like "cruel," "repulsive," "repugnant," "vile" and so on. People can smell the salt a mile away. https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=31636307#31642018 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=31636307#31642018 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=32654358#32656825 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=32654358#32656825

satvikpendem 4y ago

My "chill out" comment was not related to your thoughts on the DOM, it was due to your use of very extreme language to explain things that did not seem to merit such extremity. I linked "anti-human" above but I was able to find multitudinous other comments with words like "repulsive," "reprehensible," "cruel," "shitty," and so on. Your comment history seems filled with vitriol, and it is why I made such a comment. This is probably why your Twitter account is now suspended, on which I used to talk to you before but it appears not recently. It was a DC Tech Slack if I recall correctly by the way, you had some extreme opinions there too and used the same vitriolic language that then got you kicked out. It seems like the same pattern persists, where you were using the words above but then people got sick of it and then you tried to argue that you were commenting in good faith, or that others weren't (even though they perfectly were). Personally, I agree with you on the role of the DOM, but again, I do not see it as religiously as you do, in my view it is just a technology. I like to read content, sure, and that's where I see the value of the DOM. I also use quite a lot of browser extensions and would not like them to go away, such as adblockers. I don't see them going away though, the DOM is simply too entrenched for content. However, at the same time, I like fast and rich applications. I do not like using Electron, which is part of the very same web technology you so like. I would rather not have to pull up a browser for every single app I use. Wasting pointless CPU cycles and gigabytes of RAM, now that is anti-human, not to mention anti-Earth, since they consume more electricity and give off more greenhouse gas emissions by doing so, simply to interpret Javascript in a virtual machine. That is why I like stuff like Flutter. I don't particularly care that users can't modify it, because, again, as an app, there is nothing you necessarily need to modify, and on mobile and desktop anyways, people can't "inspect element" and change things. It provides me with a fast, unified programming interface on which I can build apps. You can still have interoperability with stuff like that, such as Mastodon which uses federation, even though users again can't directly modify the source code, at least on their mobile apps. Your opinion is fine, liminally. I even agree with parts of it. It becomes quite annoying to hear though when it becomes almost religious in the nature of your belief, where for those you disagree, you start spewing vitriol instead. It is especially grating when you are there on almost every Flutter thread on HN, and elsewhere. If you really want people to discuss with you in good faith, I recommend you stop using words like "cruel," "repulsive," "repugnant," "vile" and so on. People can smell the salt a mile away. https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=31636307#31642018 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=31636307#31642018 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=32654358#32656825 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=32654358#32656825