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Everyone talks about the machine that makes the chips, but I’ve never heard mentioned the machine that makes the machine that makes the chips. (I guess it’s pr

Everyone talks about the machine that makes the chips, but I’ve never heard mentioned the machine that makes the machine that makes the chips. (I guess it’s probably just a bunch of regular machines, but it feels like there’s got to be some special sauce in there somewhere)

Fordec 4y ago
The main company there is Zeiss in Germany that makes all the high grade optics. Part of the reason ASML is Dutch is it has access to the German precision manufacturing up-stream, quite literally.
- ragebol 4y ago
  Zeiss makes parts of the ASML machines. GP comment asks what machine make the ASML/Zeiss machines. CNC machines I guess for everything besides the optics? Just a guess. And measuring equipment.
  - wordoneone 4y ago
    [flagged]
- karmasimida 4y ago
  ASML’s laser equipment is made mainly in US by Cymer
  - pa7x1 4y ago
    The lasers are made by Trumpf in Germany.
- NicoJuicy 4y ago
  The only 2 companies that i know are invaluable for this is ASML and IMEC ( Belgium)
nwiswell 4y ago
Mostly these machines are assembled from a combination of proprietary parts manufactured using regular machine tools by contract manufacturers, and from sub-units purchased from specialist suppliers. For example: proprietary parts including optics, wafer chucks, process chambers, structural panels, etc are manufactured to spec by contractors. Pumps, valves, motion control boxes, wafer robots, loadports, servers, etc are all bought from suppliers. There's not really any magic. The materials used for the parts are sometimes exotic (e.g. single crystal silicon, single crystal quartz, yttria coating, PEEK, sapphire, etc), but the contract manufacturers use the same old boring machine tools that everyone does.
- hashtag-til 4y ago
  Oh come on… you just broke the myth I had on my mind for many years, that this company was some magical craftwork shop for mechanical parts. Anyway, nice to get a bit more realistic view. Thanks! Eager to hear more about the software, which I heard some crazy stuff about how it is engineered and tested.
  - nwiswell 4y ago
    Sorry :) I should not really say too much, but the software tends to be kind of a trainwreck. WFE companies are definitely engineering-first organizations, but software is a second-order concern in general since it is a check-the-box requirement rather than a truly differentiating product feature, and companies like Lam and AMAT which are headquartered in the Valley have serious trouble competing for software talent. Moreover the software has a multi-decade pedigree with a concordant amount of technical debt. Pretty much everything is C++. Anyway, there are fairly well-specified standards issued by SEMI like SECS-II and GEM that govern interoperability. In my (highly biased) opinion, the really interesting stuff is the real-time control systems that operate on millisecond timescales to make minute adjustments on the fly using data from onboard sensors to improve process outcomes.
    - markus_zhang 4y ago
      Ah, multiple decade C++ codebase! My dream. Do they hire juniors in Canada?
discodave 4y ago
There was an Odd Lots episode where they went deep on how complicated the ASML supply chain is. I think it was this one (though there might have been another one): https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/asml-the-obscure-powerhouse-at-the-cutting-edge/id1056200096?i=1000541948205 https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/asml-the-obscure-power...
deleted 4y ago
[deleted]
kube-system 4y ago
At some point upstream it’s all ore and petroleum.
- docandrew 4y ago
  “If it can’t be grown, it’s gotta be mined.”
- drexlspivey 4y ago
  If you keep going up it’s all hydrogen

Fordec 4y ago

The main company there is Zeiss in Germany that makes all the high grade optics. Part of the reason ASML is Dutch is it has access to the German precision manufacturing up-stream, quite literally.

ragebol 4y ago
Zeiss makes parts of the ASML machines. GP comment asks what machine make the ASML/Zeiss machines. CNC machines I guess for everything besides the optics? Just a guess. And measuring equipment.
- wordoneone 4y ago
  [flagged]
karmasimida 4y ago
ASML’s laser equipment is made mainly in US by Cymer
- pa7x1 4y ago
  The lasers are made by Trumpf in Germany.
NicoJuicy 4y ago
The only 2 companies that i know are invaluable for this is ASML and IMEC ( Belgium)

nwiswell 4y ago

Mostly these machines are assembled from a combination of proprietary parts manufactured using regular machine tools by contract manufacturers, and from sub-units purchased from specialist suppliers. For example: proprietary parts including optics, wafer chucks, process chambers, structural panels, etc are manufactured to spec by contractors. Pumps, valves, motion control boxes, wafer robots, loadports, servers, etc are all bought from suppliers. There's not really any magic. The materials used for the parts are sometimes exotic (e.g. single crystal silicon, single crystal quartz, yttria coating, PEEK, sapphire, etc), but the contract manufacturers use the same old boring machine tools that everyone does.

hashtag-til 4y ago
Oh come on… you just broke the myth I had on my mind for many years, that this company was some magical craftwork shop for mechanical parts. Anyway, nice to get a bit more realistic view. Thanks! Eager to hear more about the software, which I heard some crazy stuff about how it is engineered and tested.
- nwiswell 4y ago
  Sorry :) I should not really say too much, but the software tends to be kind of a trainwreck. WFE companies are definitely engineering-first organizations, but software is a second-order concern in general since it is a check-the-box requirement rather than a truly differentiating product feature, and companies like Lam and AMAT which are headquartered in the Valley have serious trouble competing for software talent. Moreover the software has a multi-decade pedigree with a concordant amount of technical debt. Pretty much everything is C++. Anyway, there are fairly well-specified standards issued by SEMI like SECS-II and GEM that govern interoperability. In my (highly biased) opinion, the really interesting stuff is the real-time control systems that operate on millisecond timescales to make minute adjustments on the fly using data from onboard sensors to improve process outcomes.
  - markus_zhang 4y ago
    Ah, multiple decade C++ codebase! My dream. Do they hire juniors in Canada?

discodave 4y ago

There was an Odd Lots episode where they went deep on how complicated the ASML supply chain is. I think it was this one (though there might have been another one): https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/asml-the-obscure-powerhouse-at-the-cutting-edge/id1056200096?i=1000541948205 https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/asml-the-obscure-power...

deleted 4y ago

[deleted]

kube-system 4y ago

At some point upstream it’s all ore and petroleum.

docandrew 4y ago
“If it can’t be grown, it’s gotta be mined.”
drexlspivey 4y ago
If you keep going up it’s all hydrogen