4 ms·

It makes me wonder why Aliexpress doesn't have more warehouses in the US because US is not a free market. Gatekeepers got to take their cut (if you don't get o

by slim 4y ago

It makes me wonder why Aliexpress doesn't have more warehouses in the US because US is not a free market. Gatekeepers got to take their cut (if you don't get outright denied access to the market because nationalism). Amazon is as good as any other gatekeeper, so why change ?

ChuckMcM 4y ago
I see it differently, do you have a description of what a "free market" would be that the US doesn't have? You mention Gatekeepers but I'm not sure I understand that reference. As I see it there isn't anything stopping me from selling things directly from my web site to anyone in the world right? Where is the gate keeper in that scenario?
- makeitdouble 4y ago
  We're talking about a scenario where AliExpress builds warehouses and logistics inside the US to better deliver chinese imports, in direct competition with Amazon. I see an obvious gatekeeper. As a game, can you find any example of a foreign company successfuly setting up infra in the US to chalenge an US behemoth ?
  - ChuckMcM 4y ago
    This may not be what you're thinking but I see many; Nokia on phones vs the Bell companies, Toshiba on laptops, pretty much everyone on the PC vs IBM, the entire Steel industry, the railroad industry before them, Japanese cars eating Detroit's lunch, Zenith and RCA's TV market, GE's appliance market. Where is the gatekeeper in the Amazon/Aliexpress scenario? I'm sorry but I don't see that one yet. EDIT: You did say "infra" and the best example I know of are the foreign car companies that set up factories here to build cars in the US to get around import issues.
    - makeitdouble 4y ago
      First part is focusing on individual consumer goods sold through US retailers. Your second part and edit on car manufacturers is spot on: they were set a quota of "US made" cars and had to build factories in the US as a condition to continue chalenging US local makers. I'd call that gatekeeping
      - ChuckMcM 4y ago
        That's fair. I see those actions as setting up barriers but they do prevent people who can't meet that barrier out. My thinking of gatekeeping is more absolute, as in "there is no way for you to enter here" and thus "breaking the gate" would have legal and/or diplomatic consequences. So for me there are two concepts, trade barriers and gatekeeping. Tariffs come under the heading of trade barriers as well in my view.
        makeitdouble 4y ago
        I get your point. In that sense, your view on gatekeeping would be more like what happened to Huawei and how they were straight banned from the US market. It sometimes happens, but few things are so black and white in politics and market regulations IMO. Killing the viability of an import route by pushing the tarrifs outside of the reasonable range is often enough and helps to avoid "smoking gun" headlines.
        ChuckMcM 4y ago
        Agreed, I would say Huawei was "gatekeeped" (not a word I know but banned without recourse)
        mtnGoat 4y ago
        I could go either way in this. Considering all Chinese entities must comply with their government no matter where they operate, the US was gate keeping the Chinese government from operating here. Not just some random company. And I’m ok with this, US citizens can not free hold corporations in China, why should we allow the reverse?
  - beepboop753 4y ago
    Define infra? Because many, many, many markets in the US have incredibly large amounts of foreign companies Japanese/German car makers A whole host (most?) of clothing retailers all across the price spectrum, (H&M, Zara, Uniqlo at the low end, most luxury brands are European - this market is dominated by foreign firms) Gas/gas stations (Shell, BP) I think it'd be harder to find industries without foreign companies operating in the US
    - makeitdouble 4y ago
      > Japanese/German car makers Restiction were set on import volume and makers comprnsated with US production as a politcal middle-ground. Those large amounts are partly (mainly ?) US cars. > clothing As you point out, luxury brands is where foreign companies have a presence. Feels like small potatoes to me. > Shell, BP Am not well versed in oil, but from a cursory look at Shell it has a US entity traded in the US market, partly producing US gas to US customers: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shell_USA https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shell_USA
      - beepboop753 4y ago
        > As you point out, luxury brands is where foreign companies have a presence. Feels like small potatoes to me. H&M, Zara, and Uniqlo are luxury? > Am not well versed in oil, but from a cursory look at Shell it has a US entity traded in the US market, partly producing US gas to US customers: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shell_USA https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shell_USA It's literally the US subsidiary of Shell? It's still owned and controlled by the foreign company. This is how international business works once companies reach a scale where they employee large numbers of workers in a foreign country. See Ford of Europe, ExxonMobil Europe, Apple Japan etc - these aren't European/Japanese companies, they're just branches of American ones
        makeitdouble 4y ago
        > H&M, Zara, and Uniqlo are luxury? None of them are building infra to a level that rivals US behemoths. They are well known foreigns brands, but nether commands a high market share nor represent an existential threat to US brands. Top 2 on the market should be Amazon and Wallmart, in whichever order: https://www.cnbc.com/2021/03/17/amazon-unseats-walmart-to-become-the-no-1-apparel-retailer-in-the-us.html https://www.cnbc.com/2021/03/17/amazon-unseats-walmart-to-be... To note even Gap is bigger than any of those 3 mentionned. I was pointing at the luxury market because there’s probably more competion from the outside. > Shell You’re not answering on how it operates in the US. Toyota US is in the same situation: it’s a subsidiary of the Japanese entity, but still “builds” cars in the US. Customer perceive them as Japanese cars perhaps, but if they‘re not marked at imported cars, that perception is just misplaced. Shell US refining its own oil in the US falls in the same bucket to me. The discussion was wether there was examples of foreign companies building infra to directly import foreign goods into the US market. It seems to be diverging into “are there well know and successful foreign brands in the US”
  - kcb 4y ago
    The US isn't nearly as protectionist as you're trying to imply.
    - makeitdouble 4y ago
      Then how much protectionnist is it in your views ? What's the best illustration of your point ?
- xwolfi 4y ago
  Hong Kong for instance is a freer market. Ofc it s easy: we dont build cars, we dont produce sugar, we dont design processors, all the stuff that's severely restricted in the US is due to an imbalance between the need of voters and the ideology of free markets. As long as the US listens to or need the votes of their people, they cant be a free market.
- slim 4y ago
  In that scenario the main gatekeepers could be (depending on what you are selling) Google, Facebook and US Department of Commerce

by slim 4y ago

ChuckMcM 4y ago

I see it differently, do you have a description of what a "free market" would be that the US doesn't have? You mention Gatekeepers but I'm not sure I understand that reference. As I see it there isn't anything stopping me from selling things directly from my web site to anyone in the world right? Where is the gate keeper in that scenario?

makeitdouble 4y ago
We're talking about a scenario where AliExpress builds warehouses and logistics inside the US to better deliver chinese imports, in direct competition with Amazon. I see an obvious gatekeeper. As a game, can you find any example of a foreign company successfuly setting up infra in the US to chalenge an US behemoth ?
- ChuckMcM 4y ago
  This may not be what you're thinking but I see many; Nokia on phones vs the Bell companies, Toshiba on laptops, pretty much everyone on the PC vs IBM, the entire Steel industry, the railroad industry before them, Japanese cars eating Detroit's lunch, Zenith and RCA's TV market, GE's appliance market. Where is the gatekeeper in the Amazon/Aliexpress scenario? I'm sorry but I don't see that one yet. EDIT: You did say "infra" and the best example I know of are the foreign car companies that set up factories here to build cars in the US to get around import issues.
  - makeitdouble 4y ago
    First part is focusing on individual consumer goods sold through US retailers. Your second part and edit on car manufacturers is spot on: they were set a quota of "US made" cars and had to build factories in the US as a condition to continue chalenging US local makers. I'd call that gatekeeping
    - ChuckMcM 4y ago
      That's fair. I see those actions as setting up barriers but they do prevent people who can't meet that barrier out. My thinking of gatekeeping is more absolute, as in "there is no way for you to enter here" and thus "breaking the gate" would have legal and/or diplomatic consequences. So for me there are two concepts, trade barriers and gatekeeping. Tariffs come under the heading of trade barriers as well in my view.
      - makeitdouble 4y ago
        I get your point. In that sense, your view on gatekeeping would be more like what happened to Huawei and how they were straight banned from the US market. It sometimes happens, but few things are so black and white in politics and market regulations IMO. Killing the viability of an import route by pushing the tarrifs outside of the reasonable range is often enough and helps to avoid "smoking gun" headlines.
        ChuckMcM 4y ago
        Agreed, I would say Huawei was "gatekeeped" (not a word I know but banned without recourse)
        mtnGoat 4y ago
        I could go either way in this. Considering all Chinese entities must comply with their government no matter where they operate, the US was gate keeping the Chinese government from operating here. Not just some random company. And I’m ok with this, US citizens can not free hold corporations in China, why should we allow the reverse?
- beepboop753 4y ago
  Define infra? Because many, many, many markets in the US have incredibly large amounts of foreign companies Japanese/German car makers A whole host (most?) of clothing retailers all across the price spectrum, (H&M, Zara, Uniqlo at the low end, most luxury brands are European - this market is dominated by foreign firms) Gas/gas stations (Shell, BP) I think it'd be harder to find industries without foreign companies operating in the US
  - makeitdouble 4y ago
    > Japanese/German car makers Restiction were set on import volume and makers comprnsated with US production as a politcal middle-ground. Those large amounts are partly (mainly ?) US cars. > clothing As you point out, luxury brands is where foreign companies have a presence. Feels like small potatoes to me. > Shell, BP Am not well versed in oil, but from a cursory look at Shell it has a US entity traded in the US market, partly producing US gas to US customers: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shell_USA https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shell_USA
    - beepboop753 4y ago
      > As you point out, luxury brands is where foreign companies have a presence. Feels like small potatoes to me. H&M, Zara, and Uniqlo are luxury? > Am not well versed in oil, but from a cursory look at Shell it has a US entity traded in the US market, partly producing US gas to US customers: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shell_USA https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shell_USA It's literally the US subsidiary of Shell? It's still owned and controlled by the foreign company. This is how international business works once companies reach a scale where they employee large numbers of workers in a foreign country. See Ford of Europe, ExxonMobil Europe, Apple Japan etc - these aren't European/Japanese companies, they're just branches of American ones
      - makeitdouble 4y ago
        > H&M, Zara, and Uniqlo are luxury? None of them are building infra to a level that rivals US behemoths. They are well known foreigns brands, but nether commands a high market share nor represent an existential threat to US brands. Top 2 on the market should be Amazon and Wallmart, in whichever order: https://www.cnbc.com/2021/03/17/amazon-unseats-walmart-to-become-the-no-1-apparel-retailer-in-the-us.html https://www.cnbc.com/2021/03/17/amazon-unseats-walmart-to-be... To note even Gap is bigger than any of those 3 mentionned. I was pointing at the luxury market because there’s probably more competion from the outside. > Shell You’re not answering on how it operates in the US. Toyota US is in the same situation: it’s a subsidiary of the Japanese entity, but still “builds” cars in the US. Customer perceive them as Japanese cars perhaps, but if they‘re not marked at imported cars, that perception is just misplaced. Shell US refining its own oil in the US falls in the same bucket to me. The discussion was wether there was examples of foreign companies building infra to directly import foreign goods into the US market. It seems to be diverging into “are there well know and successful foreign brands in the US”
- kcb 4y ago
  The US isn't nearly as protectionist as you're trying to imply.
  - makeitdouble 4y ago
    Then how much protectionnist is it in your views ? What's the best illustration of your point ?
xwolfi 4y ago
Hong Kong for instance is a freer market. Ofc it s easy: we dont build cars, we dont produce sugar, we dont design processors, all the stuff that's severely restricted in the US is due to an imbalance between the need of voters and the ideology of free markets. As long as the US listens to or need the votes of their people, they cant be a free market.
slim 4y ago
In that scenario the main gatekeepers could be (depending on what you are selling) Google, Facebook and US Department of Commerce