5 ms·

elementary also unfortunately shares some GNOME-isms, such as avoidance of menubars in favor of hamburger menus, which goes against Mac UX. Menubars serve as a

elementary also unfortunately shares some GNOME-isms, such as avoidance of menubars in favor of hamburger menus, which goes against Mac UX. Menubars serve as a central index of application functionality under macOS and are a central pillar to its UX.

malermeister 4y ago
I think elementary isn't trying to be Mac OS, it has its own UX - even though it's clearly inspired by Macs. It has its own HIG, which you can see here: https://docs.elementary.io/hig https://docs.elementary.io/hig Personally, I never loved menubars, so I don't mind that difference.
- kitsunesoba 4y ago
  Of course, but it's probably going to be a sticking point for many longtime Mac users looking for more FOSS-flavored alternatives.
PaulDavisThe1st 4y ago
I worked in computing as GUIs became the dominant mode of computer interaction. The idea that Apple's team, as brilliant as they were, somehow explored the full space of possibilities is just completely absurd. In the decades since their designs were formed, we have come up with new ideas that never crossed their minds (not because they were stupid, merely because they were human), and have new technology that creates questions about their assumptions and new possibilities. By all means bow down before what they did at the time, but please do not treat macOS or the Apple HIG as "the be-all and end-all of UI/UX for all time". Because it is not.
- kitsunesoba 4y ago
  There’s always room for improvement, no argument there. That said, I don’t see GNOME or elementaryOS as a clean step forward.
  - PaulDavisThe1st 4y ago
    It's a compliment to the work Apple did that there is no clean step forward.
- kybernetyk 4y ago
  >Because it is not. But in practice it is. Or can you show something better (that exists now)?
  - PaulDavisThe1st 4y ago
    Two things I can mention immediately that were not part of Apple's original HIG: optional focus-follows-mouse, and window resizing behavior. They got both of these wrong. Give me time and I am confident I can find some more significant examples.
  - peoplefromibiza 4y ago
    > Or can you show something better (that exists now)? Or can you explain why you think it is? Because it is not. Many of us don't want to use a Mac not because they are bad computers (they are extremely good) but because of MacOS Two very popular examples: Finder and iTunes The good bits in MacOS come from NeXTSTEP
- kergonath 4y ago
  > By all means bow down before what they did at the time, but please do not treat macOS or the Apple HIG as "the be-all and end-all of UI/UX for all time". Because it is not. Of course. Menu bars are still much better than catch-all hamburger menus. So it is still annoying that a project that supposedly took inspiration from older Mac OS regresses in that respect.
steve1977 4y ago
I gotta say, the Mac OS menu bar (and the same on Atari TOS) was great on smaller screens and it still works well on laptops. It doesn't work so well anymore for example with todays 34" ultrawide monitors, as the application window and it's menu are potentially far away from each other. In NeXTSTEP (the predecessor of Mac OS X), the application menu was actually vertical and moveable freely on the screen. The menus were also detachable, so you could for example leave the "File" submenu open. http://toastytech.com/guis/opensteptoolbar.png http://toastytech.com/guis/opensteptoolbar.png
- kitsunesoba 4y ago
  I can’t say I’ve had any more trouble with a global menubars on big modern high rez screens than I did on 15” 1024x768 CRTs 20 years ago. In fact the bigger the screen the more annoying I find it for the menubar (or even worse, hamburger menu) to be moving around the screen, because it means that muscle memory doesn’t apply and I’m having to track down a 20px strip or 25x25px button “manually” each time, unless the window is maximized. As for NeXT style menus, I don’t really have an opinion because with WindowMaker/NEXTSPACE on Linux the only applications that use the floating menu are GNUSTEP ones, so I don’t actually have much experience using that style of menus.

malermeister 4y ago

I think elementary isn't trying to be Mac OS, it has its own UX - even though it's clearly inspired by Macs. It has its own HIG, which you can see here: https://docs.elementary.io/hig https://docs.elementary.io/hig Personally, I never loved menubars, so I don't mind that difference.

kitsunesoba 4y ago
Of course, but it's probably going to be a sticking point for many longtime Mac users looking for more FOSS-flavored alternatives.

PaulDavisThe1st 4y ago

I worked in computing as GUIs became the dominant mode of computer interaction. The idea that Apple's team, as brilliant as they were, somehow explored the full space of possibilities is just completely absurd. In the decades since their designs were formed, we have come up with new ideas that never crossed their minds (not because they were stupid, merely because they were human), and have new technology that creates questions about their assumptions and new possibilities. By all means bow down before what they did at the time, but please do not treat macOS or the Apple HIG as "the be-all and end-all of UI/UX for all time". Because it is not.

kitsunesoba 4y ago
There’s always room for improvement, no argument there. That said, I don’t see GNOME or elementaryOS as a clean step forward.
- PaulDavisThe1st 4y ago
  It's a compliment to the work Apple did that there is no clean step forward.
kybernetyk 4y ago
>Because it is not. But in practice it is. Or can you show something better (that exists now)?
- PaulDavisThe1st 4y ago
  Two things I can mention immediately that were not part of Apple's original HIG: optional focus-follows-mouse, and window resizing behavior. They got both of these wrong. Give me time and I am confident I can find some more significant examples.
- peoplefromibiza 4y ago
  > Or can you show something better (that exists now)? Or can you explain why you think it is? Because it is not. Many of us don't want to use a Mac not because they are bad computers (they are extremely good) but because of MacOS Two very popular examples: Finder and iTunes The good bits in MacOS come from NeXTSTEP
kergonath 4y ago
> By all means bow down before what they did at the time, but please do not treat macOS or the Apple HIG as "the be-all and end-all of UI/UX for all time". Because it is not. Of course. Menu bars are still much better than catch-all hamburger menus. So it is still annoying that a project that supposedly took inspiration from older Mac OS regresses in that respect.

steve1977 4y ago

I gotta say, the Mac OS menu bar (and the same on Atari TOS) was great on smaller screens and it still works well on laptops. It doesn't work so well anymore for example with todays 34" ultrawide monitors, as the application window and it's menu are potentially far away from each other. In NeXTSTEP (the predecessor of Mac OS X), the application menu was actually vertical and moveable freely on the screen. The menus were also detachable, so you could for example leave the "File" submenu open. http://toastytech.com/guis/opensteptoolbar.png http://toastytech.com/guis/opensteptoolbar.png

kitsunesoba 4y ago
I can’t say I’ve had any more trouble with a global menubars on big modern high rez screens than I did on 15” 1024x768 CRTs 20 years ago. In fact the bigger the screen the more annoying I find it for the menubar (or even worse, hamburger menu) to be moving around the screen, because it means that muscle memory doesn’t apply and I’m having to track down a 20px strip or 25x25px button “manually” each time, unless the window is maximized. As for NeXT style menus, I don’t really have an opinion because with WindowMaker/NEXTSPACE on Linux the only applications that use the floating menu are GNUSTEP ones, so I don’t actually have much experience using that style of menus.