4 ms·

If you don't complete the transactions all funds are refunded including previously processed cards. There is essentially no button for customer decided to only

If you don't complete the transactions all funds are refunded including previously processed cards. There is essentially no button for customer decided to only pay part of the transaction no funds will be retained. The agent you are dealing with can no more complete half your transaction than you can complete half an amazon order and expect goods to be sent to you.

carlosjobim 4y ago
You've become confused as to the hierarchy. Here is the rule: 1. The human is the master 2. The machine is the slave There is always a way to change an order in a POS system. If there is no button to do that, that is not a concern for the customer.
- michaelmrose 4y ago
  The employer sets fees the employee just implements and isn't liable to be able to delete a fee. Your disagreement with employers policy isn't employees problem and you making it so kind of makes you the asshole. You ought to inform management that you disagree with the fee and won't be eating there again now that you know about it. You of course can no longer claim not to know about the fee after this point. Deleting the fee case by case would be shitty policy because it adds constant friction. Deleting it wholly and raising prices is the right thing but as mentioned in the article there is a strong incentive to keep the fee structure to avoid losing our to places that do so. The correct thing therefore is to get with city government and forbid the practice because now everyone is incentized to do the right thing. Your suggestion to throw individual temper tantrums all over town is manifestly ineffective compared to my suggestion to pay the piddling fee then fix the underlying problem.
  - carlosjobim 4y ago
    You must be quite used to always being right in everything, since you think it's adequate to call somebody an asshole out of the blue when opinions are different. I've managed restaurants and worked professionally with implementing POS systems. Any restaurant owner who tries to force customers pay an extra, hidden fee, after the food has been ordered and consumed knows that what they are doing is fraudulent. Maybe they don't know it is illicit. Every POS system has a way to delete fees and parts of an order. Business would be impossible without this, since waiters make mistakes and have to correct them. And if the system doesn't have that function it is a problem for the restaurant, not for the client. Many people share the same misconception that you have, that somehow the machine or POS system decides what the customer has to do. The purpose of a POS system is to make life easier for your staff - if that is implemented in a way that makes life harder for the customer it means you have failed badly. The human is the master and the machine is the servant. Therefore you as a customer politely but sternly refuse illicit fees when they try to force them on you. Your talk about "going to city government" shows that you don't understand that these kind of fees already are illegal on state and federal levels. Recently the Federal Trade Commission in the United States has committed explicitly [1, 2] towards cracking down hard on these hidden fees, that they call "junk fees" in the hospitality industry. Let me quote for you: "Unavoidable charges imposed on captive consumers: Consumers may be forced to pay junk fees because they have no way to avoid or opt out of them. They might be dealing with a company with a monopoly or exclusive rights that can extract fees because there is no competing option. Or consumers might get hit with fees after they have already sunk costs into a product or service, and they can’t easily walk away." This is from the White House [3]: "Surprise fees that consumers learn about after purchase. Surprise fees that consumers do not expect – and which may not be mandatory – similarly make it hard to comparison shop and can burden household finances." Are they throwing temper tantrums? Are the state attorneys who are successfully prosecuting large hotel chains for junk fees throwing temper tantrums? Is the EU throwing temper tantrums about this? Back in the real world there are countries where it is customary for restaurants to add a service fee - usually 10% - on the final bill. This is clearly stated on the menu, and usually the waiter will ask you for permission to add this fee before bringing you the bill. This system is used instead of tips. If the customer don't want to pay the fee they have the right to refuse it and all restaurants accept such a refusal. Imagine if the waiter said "Sorry, our machine doesn't allow us to remove the fee, so you have to pay. You pay now!". Most would laugh, you would pay. [1] https://news.bloomberglaw.com/us-law-week/prepare-for-renewed-ftc-regulatory-focus-on-hidden-and-junk-fees https://news.bloomberglaw.com/us-law-week/prepare-for-renewe... [2] https://www.ftc.gov/news-events/news/press-releases/2022/10/federal-trade-commission-explores-rule-cracking-down-junk-fees https://www.ftc.gov/news-events/news/press-releases/2022/10/... [3] https://www.whitehouse.gov/briefing-room/blog/2022/10/26/the-presidents-initiative-on-junk-fees-and-related-pricing-practices/ https://www.whitehouse.gov/briefing-room/blog/2022/10/26/the...
    - michaelmrose 4y ago
      If you the business owner want to make a behavior mandatory you explicitly make it mandatory by policy and often by business rules enforced by the computer. I am aware of POS systems for a number of major concerns in retail not in dining mind you where such affairs are systemically enforced without a button to delete fees individually. Adding a adds b removing b removes a. Anyone who is a big enough asshole to charge such a fee after you eat probably is a big enough asshole to enforce compliance from the staff. You say "most would laugh" and I feel like perhaps you haven't made much of a study of the human species. Most people are wimps and afraid to look like an asshole over a few bucks. This policy is pervasive enough to bitch about because it's damn near trivial to bully people into compliance if it would make them feel or look like an asshole and the cost is small and more importantly if they feel like it's normal and a social faux pas to complain. An authority figure even one as trivial as a waiter or manager telling them that this is normal and customary is sufficient to inspire conformance especially with a room full of people who are paying and leaving and not making a scene. For myself I would have read the signage and made an informed decision not to eat there on principle but had I sat down and eaten I would in fact pay a modest fee because it's not worth my time to tilt at windmills. Can you imagine sitting at a table spending your afternoon fighting the battle of the sandwich fee with a "manager" himself paid a pittance and counting yourself the victor? Winning looks like walking away and knowing they are slowly alienating their customers and they will be dead next year.

carlosjobim 4y ago

You've become confused as to the hierarchy. Here is the rule: 1. The human is the master 2. The machine is the slave There is always a way to change an order in a POS system. If there is no button to do that, that is not a concern for the customer.

michaelmrose 4y ago
The employer sets fees the employee just implements and isn't liable to be able to delete a fee. Your disagreement with employers policy isn't employees problem and you making it so kind of makes you the asshole. You ought to inform management that you disagree with the fee and won't be eating there again now that you know about it. You of course can no longer claim not to know about the fee after this point. Deleting the fee case by case would be shitty policy because it adds constant friction. Deleting it wholly and raising prices is the right thing but as mentioned in the article there is a strong incentive to keep the fee structure to avoid losing our to places that do so. The correct thing therefore is to get with city government and forbid the practice because now everyone is incentized to do the right thing. Your suggestion to throw individual temper tantrums all over town is manifestly ineffective compared to my suggestion to pay the piddling fee then fix the underlying problem.
- carlosjobim 4y ago
  You must be quite used to always being right in everything, since you think it's adequate to call somebody an asshole out of the blue when opinions are different. I've managed restaurants and worked professionally with implementing POS systems. Any restaurant owner who tries to force customers pay an extra, hidden fee, after the food has been ordered and consumed knows that what they are doing is fraudulent. Maybe they don't know it is illicit. Every POS system has a way to delete fees and parts of an order. Business would be impossible without this, since waiters make mistakes and have to correct them. And if the system doesn't have that function it is a problem for the restaurant, not for the client. Many people share the same misconception that you have, that somehow the machine or POS system decides what the customer has to do. The purpose of a POS system is to make life easier for your staff - if that is implemented in a way that makes life harder for the customer it means you have failed badly. The human is the master and the machine is the servant. Therefore you as a customer politely but sternly refuse illicit fees when they try to force them on you. Your talk about "going to city government" shows that you don't understand that these kind of fees already are illegal on state and federal levels. Recently the Federal Trade Commission in the United States has committed explicitly [1, 2] towards cracking down hard on these hidden fees, that they call "junk fees" in the hospitality industry. Let me quote for you: "Unavoidable charges imposed on captive consumers: Consumers may be forced to pay junk fees because they have no way to avoid or opt out of them. They might be dealing with a company with a monopoly or exclusive rights that can extract fees because there is no competing option. Or consumers might get hit with fees after they have already sunk costs into a product or service, and they can’t easily walk away." This is from the White House [3]: "Surprise fees that consumers learn about after purchase. Surprise fees that consumers do not expect – and which may not be mandatory – similarly make it hard to comparison shop and can burden household finances." Are they throwing temper tantrums? Are the state attorneys who are successfully prosecuting large hotel chains for junk fees throwing temper tantrums? Is the EU throwing temper tantrums about this? Back in the real world there are countries where it is customary for restaurants to add a service fee - usually 10% - on the final bill. This is clearly stated on the menu, and usually the waiter will ask you for permission to add this fee before bringing you the bill. This system is used instead of tips. If the customer don't want to pay the fee they have the right to refuse it and all restaurants accept such a refusal. Imagine if the waiter said "Sorry, our machine doesn't allow us to remove the fee, so you have to pay. You pay now!". Most would laugh, you would pay. [1] https://news.bloomberglaw.com/us-law-week/prepare-for-renewed-ftc-regulatory-focus-on-hidden-and-junk-fees https://news.bloomberglaw.com/us-law-week/prepare-for-renewe... [2] https://www.ftc.gov/news-events/news/press-releases/2022/10/federal-trade-commission-explores-rule-cracking-down-junk-fees https://www.ftc.gov/news-events/news/press-releases/2022/10/... [3] https://www.whitehouse.gov/briefing-room/blog/2022/10/26/the-presidents-initiative-on-junk-fees-and-related-pricing-practices/ https://www.whitehouse.gov/briefing-room/blog/2022/10/26/the...
  - michaelmrose 4y ago
    If you the business owner want to make a behavior mandatory you explicitly make it mandatory by policy and often by business rules enforced by the computer. I am aware of POS systems for a number of major concerns in retail not in dining mind you where such affairs are systemically enforced without a button to delete fees individually. Adding a adds b removing b removes a. Anyone who is a big enough asshole to charge such a fee after you eat probably is a big enough asshole to enforce compliance from the staff. You say "most would laugh" and I feel like perhaps you haven't made much of a study of the human species. Most people are wimps and afraid to look like an asshole over a few bucks. This policy is pervasive enough to bitch about because it's damn near trivial to bully people into compliance if it would make them feel or look like an asshole and the cost is small and more importantly if they feel like it's normal and a social faux pas to complain. An authority figure even one as trivial as a waiter or manager telling them that this is normal and customary is sufficient to inspire conformance especially with a room full of people who are paying and leaving and not making a scene. For myself I would have read the signage and made an informed decision not to eat there on principle but had I sat down and eaten I would in fact pay a modest fee because it's not worth my time to tilt at windmills. Can you imagine sitting at a table spending your afternoon fighting the battle of the sandwich fee with a "manager" himself paid a pittance and counting yourself the victor? Winning looks like walking away and knowing they are slowly alienating their customers and they will be dead next year.