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Would say in all seriousness while nodding at your comment that America was founded on exploitation, not just of natives and Africans but of future waves of imm

Would say in all seriousness while nodding at your comment that America was founded on exploitation, not just of natives and Africans but of future waves of immigrants as well, etc, and of the idea of the supremacy of the owner class (within which there was some relative, legally enshrined equality). The history of America is literally one of enabling experimentation and innovation in exploitation, of the framing that there are suckers and subordinates born every minute. This is the case in every single business domain, and is as or more true today as it ever has been. The true equality in America is that anyone and everyone can be cheated and dominated (of course some more easily/painfully than others). This unbroken lineage of inherent danger leads to the rise of (in some cases famous/legendary/mythologized) collectives and movements that attempt to enshrine rights and protections. One does not exist without the other.

mixmastamyk 4y ago
This is why the comment resonates—the "owner class" got swindled. Fatcats, not the littleguys.
cccybernetic 4y ago
As a first-generation immigrant I completely disagree with your framing here and it makes me sad that you view the United States in such an incredibly dismal way. There are many problems here, to be sure, but the US is undoubtedly one of the best places in the world to live, and, like very few other countries, tries to improve on its past, generation after generation.
- jonahbenton 4y ago
  Forgive me, the intent was not to communicate a dismal attitude. Agree completely that it is one of the best places to live and all the rest. I personally find the mental model that includes the dynamics of dominance and subjugation along with the responses of solidarity and resistance extremely helpful in understanding the world as a whole. Why are things a certain way etc? Because of X. It is a physics, and is more completely predictive and reliable than a mental model that sees only oppression and anxiety (as many people are limited to) or one that sees only ambition and advantage (as many peoples' blinders dictate). Going further, I would argue that the existence of exploitation in a system is in fact essential, as is providing tools to resist and join and brace against it. But eliminating it is impossible and a non-goal.
willcipriano 4y ago
> America was founded on exploitation, not just of natives and ... I believe these criticisms are true of essentially everywhere on earth. How much of Germany was French for a time or a vassal state of this one lord or another? Africa, the continent that invented slavery still enslaves people to this day. The Native Americans themselves faught with one another for land and treasure. Going back far enough, we cro magnons stole neanderthal land. The United States didn't pop into existence in 1776 bringing with it some sort absolute barbarity that previously never existed, it's the other way around, the world was pretty backward and barbaric until the Americans got around to fixing it.

mixmastamyk 4y ago

This is why the comment resonates—the "owner class" got swindled. Fatcats, not the littleguys.

cccybernetic 4y ago

As a first-generation immigrant I completely disagree with your framing here and it makes me sad that you view the United States in such an incredibly dismal way. There are many problems here, to be sure, but the US is undoubtedly one of the best places in the world to live, and, like very few other countries, tries to improve on its past, generation after generation.

jonahbenton 4y ago
Forgive me, the intent was not to communicate a dismal attitude. Agree completely that it is one of the best places to live and all the rest. I personally find the mental model that includes the dynamics of dominance and subjugation along with the responses of solidarity and resistance extremely helpful in understanding the world as a whole. Why are things a certain way etc? Because of X. It is a physics, and is more completely predictive and reliable than a mental model that sees only oppression and anxiety (as many people are limited to) or one that sees only ambition and advantage (as many peoples' blinders dictate). Going further, I would argue that the existence of exploitation in a system is in fact essential, as is providing tools to resist and join and brace against it. But eliminating it is impossible and a non-goal.

willcipriano 4y ago

> America was founded on exploitation, not just of natives and ... I believe these criticisms are true of essentially everywhere on earth. How much of Germany was French for a time or a vassal state of this one lord or another? Africa, the continent that invented slavery still enslaves people to this day. The Native Americans themselves faught with one another for land and treasure. Going back far enough, we cro magnons stole neanderthal land. The United States didn't pop into existence in 1776 bringing with it some sort absolute barbarity that previously never existed, it's the other way around, the world was pretty backward and barbaric until the Americans got around to fixing it.