6 ms·

This is such a poor faith argument that completely ignores any reality. These companies have had a massive last decade or so, and if what you're saying is reall

This is such a poor faith argument that completely ignores any reality. These companies have had a massive last decade or so, and if what you're saying is really the case, then we would see booming levels of wealth in middle america among the elderly. Instead, we see most wealth going to the richest of Americans, with the lions share of wealth created during the last 2 years of resurgent economic boom going to the top 1% of Americans, not the fixed income middle america boomers who are currently dying because they can't afford to keep living on social security.

overrun11 4y ago
> we would see booming levels of wealth in middle america among the elderly. I'd be interested to see evidence but I suspect we did see this? Retirement portfolios and housing prices (where the majority of elderly wealth is) ballooned. > Instead, we see most wealth going to the richest of American The elderly are the richest Americans so this is consistent with the elderly getting wealthier.
- jujugoboom 4y ago
  Retirement accounts are largely a benefit enjoyed by those well-enough off to have them [1], as well as owning a home. So while yes, these indicators have increased, it only speaks to how the bulk of wealth created since 2008 has gone to mostly well-off individuals. And while yes, wealth is overall heavily weighted to older generations, it does not change the fact that the only people who are rich are the rich, regardless of age. While most wealthy people are boomers, most boomers are not wealthy. If you look at economic insecurity (200% FPL), the elderly in America are over-represented, with a rate of about 33% compared to ~27% overall[2]. [1] https://www.census.gov/library/stories/2022/08/who-has-retirement-accounts.html https://www.census.gov/library/stories/2022/08/who-has-retir... [2] https://ncoa.org/article/get-the-facts-on-economic-security-for-seniors https://ncoa.org/article/get-the-facts-on-economic-security-...
xapata 4y ago
Your analysis doesn't match the economic measures I've been reading, which indicate that lower income workers in the US have seen real wage gains and that homeowners have seen net worth increases, and are feeling wealthier. Unemployment is very low, despite the recent layoffs, and many categories of employment are still seeing upwards wage pressure. Social Security is pinned to inflation, so I don't understand why those living on Social Security payments might be in different circumstances now than 5 years ago.
- jujugoboom 4y ago
  I have no clue where you're finding that lower income workers are experiencing any real wage gains, let alone at a significant rate. Home ownership as a percentage of population has never recovered anywhere near pre-2008 levels, so on behalf of myself and most people in my generation and cohort, I couldn't care less if homeowners have more money, that fact is having less of a bearing on our real world with each day. And yes, social security is pinned to inflation so their situation hasn't changed much in 5 years, you're right, most elderly people in america are dying poor and increasingly alone in nursing homes seeking to extract profit from them. None of these points have anything to do with my original point, which is that since the 2008 recession, the tech industry has seen a massive influx of money, and to try and argue that the money put into that industry somehow makes it back to middle america because of some made up idea of who shareholders are is a bad faith argument, and ignores any reality of the situation. I have no idea what it is with people like you who just want to die on the hill of nothing being wrong and that we just have to keep doing what we're doing. A better future is possible, and only if we all start believing it is.
  - xapata 4y ago
    Source: https://www.nytimes.com/2022/11/29/opinion/inflation-poor-income-inequality.html https://www.nytimes.com/2022/11/29/opinion/inflation-poor-in... "The labor economist Arindrajit Dube has estimated hourly wage changes — by decile rather than quartile — over a longer period, since the beginning of the pandemic recession. He finds that real wages for the bottom 40 percent of workers have actually increased".

overrun11 4y ago

> we would see booming levels of wealth in middle america among the elderly. I'd be interested to see evidence but I suspect we did see this? Retirement portfolios and housing prices (where the majority of elderly wealth is) ballooned. > Instead, we see most wealth going to the richest of American The elderly are the richest Americans so this is consistent with the elderly getting wealthier.

jujugoboom 4y ago
Retirement accounts are largely a benefit enjoyed by those well-enough off to have them [1], as well as owning a home. So while yes, these indicators have increased, it only speaks to how the bulk of wealth created since 2008 has gone to mostly well-off individuals. And while yes, wealth is overall heavily weighted to older generations, it does not change the fact that the only people who are rich are the rich, regardless of age. While most wealthy people are boomers, most boomers are not wealthy. If you look at economic insecurity (200% FPL), the elderly in America are over-represented, with a rate of about 33% compared to ~27% overall[2]. [1] https://www.census.gov/library/stories/2022/08/who-has-retirement-accounts.html https://www.census.gov/library/stories/2022/08/who-has-retir... [2] https://ncoa.org/article/get-the-facts-on-economic-security-for-seniors https://ncoa.org/article/get-the-facts-on-economic-security-...

xapata 4y ago

Your analysis doesn't match the economic measures I've been reading, which indicate that lower income workers in the US have seen real wage gains and that homeowners have seen net worth increases, and are feeling wealthier. Unemployment is very low, despite the recent layoffs, and many categories of employment are still seeing upwards wage pressure. Social Security is pinned to inflation, so I don't understand why those living on Social Security payments might be in different circumstances now than 5 years ago.

jujugoboom 4y ago
I have no clue where you're finding that lower income workers are experiencing any real wage gains, let alone at a significant rate. Home ownership as a percentage of population has never recovered anywhere near pre-2008 levels, so on behalf of myself and most people in my generation and cohort, I couldn't care less if homeowners have more money, that fact is having less of a bearing on our real world with each day. And yes, social security is pinned to inflation so their situation hasn't changed much in 5 years, you're right, most elderly people in america are dying poor and increasingly alone in nursing homes seeking to extract profit from them. None of these points have anything to do with my original point, which is that since the 2008 recession, the tech industry has seen a massive influx of money, and to try and argue that the money put into that industry somehow makes it back to middle america because of some made up idea of who shareholders are is a bad faith argument, and ignores any reality of the situation. I have no idea what it is with people like you who just want to die on the hill of nothing being wrong and that we just have to keep doing what we're doing. A better future is possible, and only if we all start believing it is.
- xapata 4y ago
  Source: https://www.nytimes.com/2022/11/29/opinion/inflation-poor-income-inequality.html https://www.nytimes.com/2022/11/29/opinion/inflation-poor-in... "The labor economist Arindrajit Dube has estimated hourly wage changes — by decile rather than quartile — over a longer period, since the beginning of the pandemic recession. He finds that real wages for the bottom 40 percent of workers have actually increased".