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>It seems unfair to penalize people for playing the game and attempting to maximize their chances for success. It forces people to make a choice where they're e

>It seems unfair to penalize people for playing the game and attempting to maximize their chances for success. It forces people to make a choice where they're effectively rolling the dice as to what the best course of action is -- either they optimize for the reality that resumes are largely computer screened, or they optimize for humans hoping that it's not. I don't think you should blame people for optimizing for what is likely the most common scenario. At first, I disagreed with you because I assumed if Chip took the time to write this post, she must be linking it or at least making it clear from the job postings. I just checked the job postings[0, 1], and they never tell the candidate that a co-founder reads every application personally nor give any indication that they're handling applications with more care than the average company (and the average company treats candidates like garbage). So, I agree. If you don't tell candidates that you're unique in the way that you process applications, you can't expect candidates to approach you differently than they approach most employers, who reward keyword stuffing. I have a similar hiring process to the author, but I spell out in my job posting that I, the founder, am reading every application personally.[2] [0] https://jobs.lever.co/claypot/7b38b49f-baa4-42b6-a58f-bab6532e51b9 https://jobs.lever.co/claypot/7b38b49f-baa4-42b6-a58f-bab653... [1] https://jobs.lever.co/claypot/9c6fedbf-3c91-4a48-98b9-467d00ae4afb https://jobs.lever.co/claypot/9c6fedbf-3c91-4a48-98b9-467d00... [2] https://tinypilotkvm.com/jobs/support-engineer https://tinypilotkvm.com/jobs/support-engineer

TylerE 4y ago
Great way to filter for people who actually want to work there and aren’t just shotgunning resumes though.
- idontpost 4y ago
  Do you think the people who play the ATS game are doing it because they don't want to work at the place they're applying to? That's a pretty specious conclusion.
  - burnished 4y ago
    No, it means they want to work but definitionally when you are sending out ad many applications as you can you stop caring about the individual qualities of a company - that comes later, when it becomes relevant.
    - AlotOfReading 4y ago
      As far as I can tell, the company in question (Claypot) has <10 employees. How many people do you think have even heard of them, let alone want to specifically work for them? Approximately all of their applicants are going to fall into the other bucket.
      - burnished 4y ago
        This chain is about "people who play the ats game" specifically, not claypot.
- speeder 4y ago
  I tried this in the past, it never worked. Resume spam is waaay better. That said it still is bad. In my whole life I got to technical interview stage only 8 times, and 2 of these were referrals...
  - pc86 4y ago
    Every time I've tailored a resume to a job I've at least gotten an initial screen. Tons of resume spam that resulted in silence though. Everyone's experience is different but on average, tailoring has better results than spam.
Balgair 4y ago
> I have a similar hiring process to the author, but I spell out in my job posting that I, the founder, am reading every application personally. I mean, the real question is if the job candidate will actually believe it. From personal experience, I put my website's URL into my CVs. When you bother to visit the website, I have a little shibboleth there that says to mention a certain thing in the job interview and I'll give you $50. I've only ever had one person ever mention that in ~20 years of the shibboleth being there, and I gave them the $50. I used to put the shibboleth in the CV, but it felt a bit crass after a while. Also, great note there at the end of the application. I would believe you in this case.
- Sebguer 4y ago
  I'm pretty sure I would get into a significant amount of trouble with my company's people team if I accepted $50 from a candidate. I honestly would consider the presence of this offer on your website as a red flag.
  - ghaff 4y ago
    Yeah, if I really wanted to know if someone had clicked through to my website, maybe I'd put something like "Ask me about the time $THING" But, really, an interview doesn't seem like the time to play cutesy games.
  - lelanthran 4y ago
    You don't have to accept it, you just have to mention it. OTOH, I'm pretty sure most companies have rules against hiring candidates who offer money to the interviewer (even if the interviewer declines, the candidate is rejected anyway).
- mhb 4y ago
  Just FYI, pretty sure that you're thinking of a word other than "shibboleth".
  - pc86 4y ago
    They're using it the way I would expect if their only experience with the word was that episode of The West Wing. Which is to say, not correctly.

TylerE 4y ago

Great way to filter for people who actually want to work there and aren’t just shotgunning resumes though.

idontpost 4y ago
Do you think the people who play the ATS game are doing it because they don't want to work at the place they're applying to? That's a pretty specious conclusion.
- burnished 4y ago
  No, it means they want to work but definitionally when you are sending out ad many applications as you can you stop caring about the individual qualities of a company - that comes later, when it becomes relevant.
  - AlotOfReading 4y ago
    As far as I can tell, the company in question (Claypot) has <10 employees. How many people do you think have even heard of them, let alone want to specifically work for them? Approximately all of their applicants are going to fall into the other bucket.
    - burnished 4y ago
      This chain is about "people who play the ats game" specifically, not claypot.
speeder 4y ago
I tried this in the past, it never worked. Resume spam is waaay better. That said it still is bad. In my whole life I got to technical interview stage only 8 times, and 2 of these were referrals...
- pc86 4y ago
  Every time I've tailored a resume to a job I've at least gotten an initial screen. Tons of resume spam that resulted in silence though. Everyone's experience is different but on average, tailoring has better results than spam.

Balgair 4y ago

> I have a similar hiring process to the author, but I spell out in my job posting that I, the founder, am reading every application personally. I mean, the real question is if the job candidate will actually believe it. From personal experience, I put my website's URL into my CVs. When you bother to visit the website, I have a little shibboleth there that says to mention a certain thing in the job interview and I'll give you $50. I've only ever had one person ever mention that in ~20 years of the shibboleth being there, and I gave them the $50. I used to put the shibboleth in the CV, but it felt a bit crass after a while. Also, great note there at the end of the application. I would believe you in this case.

Sebguer 4y ago
I'm pretty sure I would get into a significant amount of trouble with my company's people team if I accepted $50 from a candidate. I honestly would consider the presence of this offer on your website as a red flag.
- ghaff 4y ago
  Yeah, if I really wanted to know if someone had clicked through to my website, maybe I'd put something like "Ask me about the time $THING" But, really, an interview doesn't seem like the time to play cutesy games.
- lelanthran 4y ago
  You don't have to accept it, you just have to mention it. OTOH, I'm pretty sure most companies have rules against hiring candidates who offer money to the interviewer (even if the interviewer declines, the candidate is rejected anyway).
mhb 4y ago
Just FYI, pretty sure that you're thinking of a word other than "shibboleth".
- pc86 4y ago
  They're using it the way I would expect if their only experience with the word was that episode of The West Wing. Which is to say, not correctly.