4 ms·

One thing that struck me while reading The Iliad as an adult was how the gods' personalities and actions seemed to make the story more believable. What do I mea

by scop 4y ago

One thing that struck me while reading The Iliad as an adult was how the gods' personalities and actions seemed to make the story more believable. What do I mean you ask? Well, they embodied many of the arbitrary and difficult-to-discern movements we encounter in life. Forces beyond our control and often beyond our cognition. By "believable" I don't mean "this is what happened" but rather "this accurately depicts the experience of life".

seanhunter 4y ago
Yes. When I was a child and read Norse and Greek mythology I always thought about gods as "this is the god of love", "this is the god of thunder" etc. As an adult coming back to those myths I realised that the gods are given facets of human personality and are actually a lens through which to understand our own flaws and traits.
- LanceH 4y ago
  I think of it a bit like "Wheel of Fortune". The stories of the gods are made to make the listener seem clever.
- rollcat 4y ago
  > As an adult coming back to those myths I realised that the gods are given facets of human personality and are actually a lens through which to understand our own flaws and traits. It's a very good argument whenever discussing atheism with a religious person: if god is flawless / perfectly just / infallible / all-loving etc, then why is he ascribed with so many human flaws, such as jealousy (Exodus 20:5, 34:14, etc), hatred towards a group (Isaiah 23:11; modern-day hatred directed e.g. at sexual minorities), vengeance (Numbers 35:21), why does he order death or destruction (Isaiah 23:11 again), or why does he even care how one lives their life? Never once got a good answer.
  - gongle 4y ago
    Never heard anyone describe The Father as those things, maybe Christ. Ive heard God being all good but that is because of per definition of good.
    - rollcat 4y ago
      You should read the bible then. I've included the references.
    - tarotuser 4y ago
      [flagged]
  - feoren 4y ago
    Excellent points. And for the person who said they never heard anyone describe God as jealous: > for I, the Lord your God, am a jealous God [Exodus 20:5] God describes himself as jealous!
    - Eleison23 4y ago
      [dead]
  - tarotuser 4y ago
    I wish this weren't buried in a small form factor computer build thread, as you deserve a better response... I am an occultist and a witch. I don't particularly work with many Gods, but I do work with 2 (Brigid and Loki). Others have worked with and against me at times. First, there are a LOT of these types of beings. The Caananite Sky deity, later known as YHVH, is only one such. However, He was able to place Himself as the seat of Judaism, Christianity, and Islam. > if god is flawless / perfectly just / infallible / all-loving etc Simply put: they aren't. Even they do have limits. Those limits are a lot different than what we'd normally think of as limits. The reason why the Abramanic religions view their deity as that is primarily propaganda - the believers couldn't come to terms that they were fallible. > then why is he ascribed with so many human flaws It's my belief that they were human as well, and figured out the secret of ascension. > (bible quotes) The quotes you used are primarily the Christian names. The Torah version of those are nowhere near as clear as you indicate. In ancient Hebrew, no vowels were written down. It was the job of the head Rabbi to *interpret*.. divine, if you will, the hidden vowels and do a divination of the words in the Torah. And due to this, the meanings of the verses you quote change as times change. You can see this if you compare an Etz Hayim from decades apart. A stark notable change in readings happened just after WWII. > why does he even care how one lives their life That's complicated. Many of us in the occult not only believe in reincarnation, but also that each of us are pieces that are combined to make "me". And between death and life, those pieces can be jumbled around. I've been able to access my past and some of my future lives. From someone who is timeless (think: deity), they're looking at the big picture, across all your lives. That path leads somewhere, and those decisions in each life matter to that course. Again, we're usually too narrow focused to see that, and most are also without the techniques to discern futures and past/future lives. Some of us have larger plans. others, not so much. But usually those "plans" also have larger responsibility, and a lot of hardship. I just happen to be on a different path than most on this earth. It doesn't make me any more or less special than the rest of you.
    - rollcat 4y ago
      I'm well aware I've barely scratched the surface with the question (it's merely meant to challenge a particular aspect of fundamentalism), and that the topics of spirituality run both broad and deep, have personal and communal aspects, you need historical / social perspective, etc. To me, spirituality is a vehicle for learning about oneself; learning cannot happen without a readiness to accept that you were in error - which is why I find such "contradiction hunting" intriguing. It's always interesting to read a different perspective, thank you for your response. But let's try not to derail the thread any further ;) if you'd like to continue the conversation, my email is in my profile.
- dale_glass 4y ago
  If you want to see something weird, try Celtic mythology. You have interesting characters like Math fab Mathonwy, who somehow must rest his feet in the lap of a virgin unless he was at war, or he will die. Or Cú Chulainn, who was amazingly badass to the point that he had to be stopped by mass female toplessness. I haven't the faintest clue what those are supposed to symbolize or represent, but it's sure interesting.

by scop 4y ago

seanhunter 4y ago

Yes. When I was a child and read Norse and Greek mythology I always thought about gods as "this is the god of love", "this is the god of thunder" etc. As an adult coming back to those myths I realised that the gods are given facets of human personality and are actually a lens through which to understand our own flaws and traits.

LanceH 4y ago
I think of it a bit like "Wheel of Fortune". The stories of the gods are made to make the listener seem clever.
rollcat 4y ago
> As an adult coming back to those myths I realised that the gods are given facets of human personality and are actually a lens through which to understand our own flaws and traits. It's a very good argument whenever discussing atheism with a religious person: if god is flawless / perfectly just / infallible / all-loving etc, then why is he ascribed with so many human flaws, such as jealousy (Exodus 20:5, 34:14, etc), hatred towards a group (Isaiah 23:11; modern-day hatred directed e.g. at sexual minorities), vengeance (Numbers 35:21), why does he order death or destruction (Isaiah 23:11 again), or why does he even care how one lives their life? Never once got a good answer.
- gongle 4y ago
  Never heard anyone describe The Father as those things, maybe Christ. Ive heard God being all good but that is because of per definition of good.
  - rollcat 4y ago
    You should read the bible then. I've included the references.
  - tarotuser 4y ago
    [flagged]
- feoren 4y ago
  Excellent points. And for the person who said they never heard anyone describe God as jealous: > for I, the Lord your God, am a jealous God [Exodus 20:5] God describes himself as jealous!
  - Eleison23 4y ago
    [dead]
- tarotuser 4y ago
  I wish this weren't buried in a small form factor computer build thread, as you deserve a better response... I am an occultist and a witch. I don't particularly work with many Gods, but I do work with 2 (Brigid and Loki). Others have worked with and against me at times. First, there are a LOT of these types of beings. The Caananite Sky deity, later known as YHVH, is only one such. However, He was able to place Himself as the seat of Judaism, Christianity, and Islam. > if god is flawless / perfectly just / infallible / all-loving etc Simply put: they aren't. Even they do have limits. Those limits are a lot different than what we'd normally think of as limits. The reason why the Abramanic religions view their deity as that is primarily propaganda - the believers couldn't come to terms that they were fallible. > then why is he ascribed with so many human flaws It's my belief that they were human as well, and figured out the secret of ascension. > (bible quotes) The quotes you used are primarily the Christian names. The Torah version of those are nowhere near as clear as you indicate. In ancient Hebrew, no vowels were written down. It was the job of the head Rabbi to *interpret*.. divine, if you will, the hidden vowels and do a divination of the words in the Torah. And due to this, the meanings of the verses you quote change as times change. You can see this if you compare an Etz Hayim from decades apart. A stark notable change in readings happened just after WWII. > why does he even care how one lives their life That's complicated. Many of us in the occult not only believe in reincarnation, but also that each of us are pieces that are combined to make "me". And between death and life, those pieces can be jumbled around. I've been able to access my past and some of my future lives. From someone who is timeless (think: deity), they're looking at the big picture, across all your lives. That path leads somewhere, and those decisions in each life matter to that course. Again, we're usually too narrow focused to see that, and most are also without the techniques to discern futures and past/future lives. Some of us have larger plans. others, not so much. But usually those "plans" also have larger responsibility, and a lot of hardship. I just happen to be on a different path than most on this earth. It doesn't make me any more or less special than the rest of you.
  - rollcat 4y ago
    I'm well aware I've barely scratched the surface with the question (it's merely meant to challenge a particular aspect of fundamentalism), and that the topics of spirituality run both broad and deep, have personal and communal aspects, you need historical / social perspective, etc. To me, spirituality is a vehicle for learning about oneself; learning cannot happen without a readiness to accept that you were in error - which is why I find such "contradiction hunting" intriguing. It's always interesting to read a different perspective, thank you for your response. But let's try not to derail the thread any further ;) if you'd like to continue the conversation, my email is in my profile.
dale_glass 4y ago
If you want to see something weird, try Celtic mythology. You have interesting characters like Math fab Mathonwy, who somehow must rest his feet in the lap of a virgin unless he was at war, or he will die. Or Cú Chulainn, who was amazingly badass to the point that he had to be stopped by mass female toplessness. I haven't the faintest clue what those are supposed to symbolize or represent, but it's sure interesting.