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This feels gimmicky and fragile. If distributed / decentralized storage is required (sounds like a good idea overall) it is surely better to have stationary ins

This feels gimmicky and fragile. If distributed / decentralized storage is required (sounds like a good idea overall) it is surely better to have stationary installations, with larger batteries and connectivity optimized for that purpose, not using the EV batteries currently developed for moving these two-ton exosceletons to random places... In fact you want to have the option to significantly reduce EV usage as other, more sustainable overall, mobility modes become available and/or popular.

coffeebeqn 4y ago
It is gimmicky but the batteries in EVs are really big and especially in the US everyone has a car. I don’t see a large amount of houses getting a 30-70kWh battery unless they install rooftop solar. So what are the realistic options ? Other than large infrastructure spend to get grid batteries which is probably what will happen in the end
- dahfizz 4y ago
  > So what are the realistic options? Maybe the utility companies could do their job and provide a reliable electricity source, instead of outsourcing it to customers.
  - j245 4y ago
    > Companies could do their job This is quite a naive view of how the world works. Their actual “job” is to make the most amount of money possible. A realistic option has to be one that is both technically superior and something a company is incentivised to do.
    - dahfizz 4y ago
      > Their actual “job” is to make the most amount of money possible. That is generally true, but not of quasi-public utility companies. The government controls the price utilities charge, and could force them to invest in storage.
lambdasquirrel 4y ago
I came on here to comment that if you do this, it requires that the EVs be connected to the grid. How is that going to happen during the day when a lot of folks are at work, or out and about, and there aren't that many public chargers? I don't think this whole EVs-as-grid-storage really makes sense. When the EVs go into the scrap market, the batteries will likely still have 80% of their range left (if not more, based on what folks have been reporting). If it's as low as 80%, it would be a huge detriment in the used market, but that much is still fine and dandy for grid storage. Just wait 10-15 years and use them then, if this is supposed to be a strategy. Or better yet, keep investing in other non-lithium chemistries, like those involving sodium, and then cost per kwh will go down significantly.
- dTal 4y ago
  Yeah, the utility of smoothing grid demand overnight seems limited. Nighttime is when demand is least peaky. And if you commit to having the EV charged in the morning, you can't get net energy out which means it can't be used to compensate for lack of sun either. It doesn't seem to solve any problems that we actually have.
- bluedino 4y ago
  Doesn't the average US household have 2 cars? And probably higher in the households that can afford a new Tesla?
- audunw 4y ago
  > I came on here to comment that if you do this, it requires that the EVs be connected to the grid. How is that going to happen during the day when a lot of folks are at work Having chargers at the office is a thing. You could imagine grid operators subsidizing setting up EV chargers at office parking lots on the condition that they're V2G capable. I wouldn't mind letting my EV charge at home at night and discharge down to, say 50%, at work. Also, there's generally a big peak just as people come home from work. I could charge at night, discharge the first couple of hourse right after I come home, and then charge again. I don't always drive to work either, I hope to take the bus or train more when kids are done with kindergarten (they can walk to school on their own). But this is Europe, I get that this is less realistic in USA. You have some good points, but I think the next 10-20 years will be so critical for the switch to renewables that we can't afford to wait. If we can get some help from V2G until more permanent solutions are in place, why not?
tuatoru 4y ago
Battery swapping allows you to have both EVs and the benefits of decentralized stationary installations. The "gas station" model of battery swapping has a number of features: lower sticker price on cars, key for mass-market adoption; expert battery pack charge and diagnosis, maintenance and repair; extension of pack lifetimes by offering cheaper rates to drivers who only want to go short distances and therefore can use old battery packs with only 65% of original capacity; easier power planning and control for distribution grid operators with smoothed electricty consumption and abillity to return energy to the grid in peak demand/low supply hours; easy revenue collection for local governments.
- chipsa 4y ago
  Battery swapping has a number of disadvantages: forcing all the cars to use a specific size and shape battery, which may not be great for packaging efficiency. Battery has to be physically more robust to be able to withstand regular handling. It has to be designed to be quickly detachable, because if the battery takes 20 minutes to take out, it's definitely not faster than just charging the thing.
goodpoint 4y ago
> This feels gimmicky and fragile If anything is very much anti-fragile. Decentralized batteries would only make the grid more resilient both to outages and overloads.
- college_physics 4y ago
  my comparison is between EV batteries and stationary batteries, not a system without batteries (which is in any case unworkable if input is solely based on renewables). a stationary distributed system seems superior in many ways to the mobile version (more capacity, more predictable in both charging and discharging schedules, potentially less costly battery technologies etc). if such a system happens anyway, I'd see the issue of linking the EV fleet as secondary
mnw21cam 4y ago
I made this argument a few years ago when my wife asked me if it was a good idea for us to get solar panels for the house. My reply was that solar farms get economy of scale and would out-compete us, plus our roof views East/West, not South. Now that electricity prices have trebled, I have changed my mind. The simple fact is that these static larger installations should be better, but they're not happening at nearly high enough rate, and so there is still benefit to be had by individuals installing smaller less efficient systems.

coffeebeqn 4y ago

It is gimmicky but the batteries in EVs are really big and especially in the US everyone has a car. I don’t see a large amount of houses getting a 30-70kWh battery unless they install rooftop solar. So what are the realistic options ? Other than large infrastructure spend to get grid batteries which is probably what will happen in the end

dahfizz 4y ago
> So what are the realistic options? Maybe the utility companies could do their job and provide a reliable electricity source, instead of outsourcing it to customers.
- j245 4y ago
  > Companies could do their job This is quite a naive view of how the world works. Their actual “job” is to make the most amount of money possible. A realistic option has to be one that is both technically superior and something a company is incentivised to do.
  - dahfizz 4y ago
    > Their actual “job” is to make the most amount of money possible. That is generally true, but not of quasi-public utility companies. The government controls the price utilities charge, and could force them to invest in storage.

lambdasquirrel 4y ago

I came on here to comment that if you do this, it requires that the EVs be connected to the grid. How is that going to happen during the day when a lot of folks are at work, or out and about, and there aren't that many public chargers? I don't think this whole EVs-as-grid-storage really makes sense. When the EVs go into the scrap market, the batteries will likely still have 80% of their range left (if not more, based on what folks have been reporting). If it's as low as 80%, it would be a huge detriment in the used market, but that much is still fine and dandy for grid storage. Just wait 10-15 years and use them then, if this is supposed to be a strategy. Or better yet, keep investing in other non-lithium chemistries, like those involving sodium, and then cost per kwh will go down significantly.

dTal 4y ago
Yeah, the utility of smoothing grid demand overnight seems limited. Nighttime is when demand is least peaky. And if you commit to having the EV charged in the morning, you can't get net energy out which means it can't be used to compensate for lack of sun either. It doesn't seem to solve any problems that we actually have.
bluedino 4y ago
Doesn't the average US household have 2 cars? And probably higher in the households that can afford a new Tesla?
audunw 4y ago
> I came on here to comment that if you do this, it requires that the EVs be connected to the grid. How is that going to happen during the day when a lot of folks are at work Having chargers at the office is a thing. You could imagine grid operators subsidizing setting up EV chargers at office parking lots on the condition that they're V2G capable. I wouldn't mind letting my EV charge at home at night and discharge down to, say 50%, at work. Also, there's generally a big peak just as people come home from work. I could charge at night, discharge the first couple of hourse right after I come home, and then charge again. I don't always drive to work either, I hope to take the bus or train more when kids are done with kindergarten (they can walk to school on their own). But this is Europe, I get that this is less realistic in USA. You have some good points, but I think the next 10-20 years will be so critical for the switch to renewables that we can't afford to wait. If we can get some help from V2G until more permanent solutions are in place, why not?

tuatoru 4y ago

Battery swapping allows you to have both EVs and the benefits of decentralized stationary installations. The "gas station" model of battery swapping has a number of features: lower sticker price on cars, key for mass-market adoption; expert battery pack charge and diagnosis, maintenance and repair; extension of pack lifetimes by offering cheaper rates to drivers who only want to go short distances and therefore can use old battery packs with only 65% of original capacity; easier power planning and control for distribution grid operators with smoothed electricty consumption and abillity to return energy to the grid in peak demand/low supply hours; easy revenue collection for local governments.

chipsa 4y ago
Battery swapping has a number of disadvantages: forcing all the cars to use a specific size and shape battery, which may not be great for packaging efficiency. Battery has to be physically more robust to be able to withstand regular handling. It has to be designed to be quickly detachable, because if the battery takes 20 minutes to take out, it's definitely not faster than just charging the thing.

goodpoint 4y ago

> This feels gimmicky and fragile If anything is very much anti-fragile. Decentralized batteries would only make the grid more resilient both to outages and overloads.

college_physics 4y ago
my comparison is between EV batteries and stationary batteries, not a system without batteries (which is in any case unworkable if input is solely based on renewables). a stationary distributed system seems superior in many ways to the mobile version (more capacity, more predictable in both charging and discharging schedules, potentially less costly battery technologies etc). if such a system happens anyway, I'd see the issue of linking the EV fleet as secondary

mnw21cam 4y ago

I made this argument a few years ago when my wife asked me if it was a good idea for us to get solar panels for the house. My reply was that solar farms get economy of scale and would out-compete us, plus our roof views East/West, not South. Now that electricity prices have trebled, I have changed my mind. The simple fact is that these static larger installations should be better, but they're not happening at nearly high enough rate, and so there is still benefit to be had by individuals installing smaller less efficient systems.