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But you don't understand! These people who were laid off are important! So much so they didn't need a union, because the company couldn't possibly let them go

But you don't understand! These people who were laid off are important! So much so they didn't need a union, because the company couldn't possibly let them go. Unions are for all those other people who aren't important! Perhaps some of you are beginning to understand the term Solidarity Forever.

NhanH 4y ago
Union does not protect you from layoff. They will be able to negotiate for severance package, but seeing the way big techs are handling it, I highly doubt unions can negotiate a better one.
- PuppyTailWags 4y ago
  I have some criticism, mainly in that I want visa-holders to fit the legal definition of employed for longer so that they can find a new job without the 30 day deadline over their heads.
- creativenolo 4y ago
  A union’s function is to protect you from layoffs. They stand to protect you from layoffs through collective bargaining. The difference in how layoffs are handled between the US & parts of Europe is astounding, where big tech could be bothered to face the fight against union influenced legislation and works rights.
- AtlasBarfed 4y ago
  What? Unions absolutely can protect against layoffs, by threatening to strike over them. Union: Oh, you are making 16 billion profit and want to lay off 12,000 people on a whim? How about we strike and your profit is cut in half next quarter and you all miss your stock options? Huh, no layoffs, funny. Granted we haven't SEEN an effective labor union in the US (aside from the police unions) in about 100 years, that doesn't mean they can't work in principle.
carapace 4y ago
I used to think programmers didn't need unions. Then that massive no-poaching collusion amongst dozens of the top tech companies in the US surfaced. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/High-Tech_Employee_Antitrust_Litigation https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/High-Tech_Employee_Antitrust_L... It wasn't just "Adobe, Apple Inc., Google, Intel, Intuit, Pixar, Lucasfilm and eBay", the practice spread to "dozens" of other companies: > Confidential internal Google and Apple memos, buried within piles of court dockets and reviewed by PandoDaily, clearly show that what began as a secret cartel agreement between Apple’s Steve Jobs and Google’s Eric Schmidt to illegally fix the labor market for hi-tech workers, expanded within a few years to include companies ranging from Dell, IBM, eBay and Microsoft, to Comcast, Clear Channel, Dreamworks, and London-based public relations behemoth WPP. All told, the combined workforces of the companies involved totals well over a million employees. https://web.archive.org/web/20210912195239/https://pando.com/2014/03/22/revealed-apple-and-googles-wage-fixing-cartel-involved-dozens-more-companies-over-one-million-employees/ https://web.archive.org/web/20210912195239/https://pando.com... It's actually pretty insane what's revealed in the documents, they knew exactly what they were doing, they were completely ruthless. Anyway, now I think that we do need unions, or something, because these folks are clearly willing to do anything they think they can get away with.
- akkartik 4y ago
  How would unions help against such no-poaching collusion?
  - carapace 4y ago
    Good question. I have no idea. (That's why I said "or something" above, eh?) I know almost nothing about unions, and I don't work for large corporations. (FWIW, I mostly worked for startups, but I did try the corporate thing for a couple of years, mostly for the experience. What I decided was that corporations are not bad, in fact I'd say they are mostly a huge improvement over previous forms of large-scale human organization, but they're not for me. This isn't a judgment thing, it's a matter of personal taste.) - - - - edit to add: I started a non-profit mutual benefit corporation a couple of months ago to pursue a simple tech stack w/o the overhead (pun intended) of being a for-profit startup. It's way too soon to say whether it will work or not, but at least I'm living my values. :)
recycledfood 4y ago
I am a BigCo SWE and I have long wanted to organize, but as a sole provider I don't know how to do so effectively without significant risk to my family. The sad facts are that most workers in the US: lack class awareness thanks to decades of successful pro-owner, anti-worker propaganda and policies; are falsely divided along lines which are convenient to the owner class (left/right, boomer/millenial, gay/straight, receiving public benefits/not); are unknowingly and dangerously close to medical bankruptcy even when covered by "good" insurance; can't afford to be even temporarily unemployed, because their health coverage is tied to their employer; can't afford to protest or attempt organizing, because they could then quickly become unemployed and endanger their dependents. The Silicon Valley engineer earning $500k/year is better off than the midwest bank junior IT worker earning $50k. But they are part of the same class and should organize accordingly in order to gain true leverage. Having competing job offers is a kind of leverage available to some, at an exhausting personal cost. These can be used to obtain one-dimensional improvements like higher pay, more vacation days, or choice of projects. But true leverage could make CEO's weepy and meaningless "I take full responsibility" statements actually mean something, among other things. The recent layoffs in the US including a hefty severance rely on luck, not leverage. Tech workers probably have all the tools needed to organize effectively, and not only among themselves. But whisper "union" and ten peers will chime in before your next breath with falsehoods and other generic claims based on misremembered anecdotes which miss the point entirely and diffuse useful discussion.

NhanH 4y ago

Union does not protect you from layoff. They will be able to negotiate for severance package, but seeing the way big techs are handling it, I highly doubt unions can negotiate a better one.

PuppyTailWags 4y ago
I have some criticism, mainly in that I want visa-holders to fit the legal definition of employed for longer so that they can find a new job without the 30 day deadline over their heads.
creativenolo 4y ago
A union’s function is to protect you from layoffs. They stand to protect you from layoffs through collective bargaining. The difference in how layoffs are handled between the US & parts of Europe is astounding, where big tech could be bothered to face the fight against union influenced legislation and works rights.
AtlasBarfed 4y ago
What? Unions absolutely can protect against layoffs, by threatening to strike over them. Union: Oh, you are making 16 billion profit and want to lay off 12,000 people on a whim? How about we strike and your profit is cut in half next quarter and you all miss your stock options? Huh, no layoffs, funny. Granted we haven't SEEN an effective labor union in the US (aside from the police unions) in about 100 years, that doesn't mean they can't work in principle.

carapace 4y ago

I used to think programmers didn't need unions. Then that massive no-poaching collusion amongst dozens of the top tech companies in the US surfaced. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/High-Tech_Employee_Antitrust_Litigation https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/High-Tech_Employee_Antitrust_L... It wasn't just "Adobe, Apple Inc., Google, Intel, Intuit, Pixar, Lucasfilm and eBay", the practice spread to "dozens" of other companies: > Confidential internal Google and Apple memos, buried within piles of court dockets and reviewed by PandoDaily, clearly show that what began as a secret cartel agreement between Apple’s Steve Jobs and Google’s Eric Schmidt to illegally fix the labor market for hi-tech workers, expanded within a few years to include companies ranging from Dell, IBM, eBay and Microsoft, to Comcast, Clear Channel, Dreamworks, and London-based public relations behemoth WPP. All told, the combined workforces of the companies involved totals well over a million employees. https://web.archive.org/web/20210912195239/https://pando.com/2014/03/22/revealed-apple-and-googles-wage-fixing-cartel-involved-dozens-more-companies-over-one-million-employees/ https://web.archive.org/web/20210912195239/https://pando.com... It's actually pretty insane what's revealed in the documents, they knew exactly what they were doing, they were completely ruthless. Anyway, now I think that we do need unions, or something, because these folks are clearly willing to do anything they think they can get away with.

akkartik 4y ago
How would unions help against such no-poaching collusion?
- carapace 4y ago
  Good question. I have no idea. (That's why I said "or something" above, eh?) I know almost nothing about unions, and I don't work for large corporations. (FWIW, I mostly worked for startups, but I did try the corporate thing for a couple of years, mostly for the experience. What I decided was that corporations are not bad, in fact I'd say they are mostly a huge improvement over previous forms of large-scale human organization, but they're not for me. This isn't a judgment thing, it's a matter of personal taste.) - - - - edit to add: I started a non-profit mutual benefit corporation a couple of months ago to pursue a simple tech stack w/o the overhead (pun intended) of being a for-profit startup. It's way too soon to say whether it will work or not, but at least I'm living my values. :)

recycledfood 4y ago

I am a BigCo SWE and I have long wanted to organize, but as a sole provider I don't know how to do so effectively without significant risk to my family. The sad facts are that most workers in the US: lack class awareness thanks to decades of successful pro-owner, anti-worker propaganda and policies; are falsely divided along lines which are convenient to the owner class (left/right, boomer/millenial, gay/straight, receiving public benefits/not); are unknowingly and dangerously close to medical bankruptcy even when covered by "good" insurance; can't afford to be even temporarily unemployed, because their health coverage is tied to their employer; can't afford to protest or attempt organizing, because they could then quickly become unemployed and endanger their dependents. The Silicon Valley engineer earning $500k/year is better off than the midwest bank junior IT worker earning $50k. But they are part of the same class and should organize accordingly in order to gain true leverage. Having competing job offers is a kind of leverage available to some, at an exhausting personal cost. These can be used to obtain one-dimensional improvements like higher pay, more vacation days, or choice of projects. But true leverage could make CEO's weepy and meaningless "I take full responsibility" statements actually mean something, among other things. The recent layoffs in the US including a hefty severance rely on luck, not leverage. Tech workers probably have all the tools needed to organize effectively, and not only among themselves. But whisper "union" and ten peers will chime in before your next breath with falsehoods and other generic claims based on misremembered anecdotes which miss the point entirely and diffuse useful discussion.