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> Either it's no longer a priority and then you should cut 100% / terminate the product. > It doesn't sound like it'll help get to success. Fuchsia is in pro

> Either it's no longer a priority and then you should cut 100% / terminate the product. > It doesn't sound like it'll help get to success. Fuchsia is in production; in people's homes today. You can't kill the whole project without a plan for those devices. What if there is a bug in the kernel? Who's going to fix those devices, who's going to ensure a security update comes out? > Why cut 16% of a thing? Well, maybe you realize that 336 people is enough? Or you cut 16% of the scope. Or you want to kill the project over the next year, but you need people there to help kill it gracefully, without jeopardizing a bunch of in-prod devices. > it's still a priority but then you just made execution wayyy slower. > you can't afford the cash Fuchsia is in prod, but there is realistically not much google can do with it. Its in prod on a few devices, and based on leaks on HN/media, that may increase. But that doesn't mean its anywhere near a new alternative to linux/android. Maybe they realized that they can't afford to build a new full-feature operating system that they'll never use for anything more than a smart speaker, so they're cutting 16+% of the scope. Rumors I've heard from contacts in google is that more layoffs are coming across the year. 16% could be the biggest chunk they can take out at once without jeopardizing too much "bus factor". Fuchsia may get cut another 16% in 6mo. If they're de-prioritizing all non-smart-speaker utility, then they may be able to cut 50% over the long run, without "graveyard"ing it. Personally, I agree that it doesn't make sense to maintain a custom OS over a linux distro if it isn't going places. They used to want to grow in-house knowledge and research on operating systems, but I bet those days are over now. I hope more organizations started to invest in fuchsia before it dies inside google.

yafbum 4y ago
Ok maybe not 100% but 300 people aren't needed to do the occasional security patch for some kind of smart speaker. Sounds like the future of this project is towards the trashcan then.
cmrdporcupine 4y ago
> Fuchsia is in production; in people's homes today. You can't kill the whole project without a plan for those devices. Those devices never used to run Fuchsia, they ran the Chromecast linux distrib. When I left that team half the devices (the small ones) were being re-flashed with Fuchsia, but the big ones were still running Chromecast. The UI layer was the same (Flutter-based) on both and a consumer can't tell the difference. There were no feature advantages to the Fuchsia transition. (In fact the opposite since a bunch of stuff [e.g. accessibility features] had to be rewritten from scratch) I'm sure some stuff has bitrotted, but last I looked Chromecast was still a thing, so the OS distrib is still there and shipping on devices. And it will still run on those devices in the field. Not actually suggesting this as a course of action, but I think you're wrong that they have no alternative to keeping Fuchsia. It would actually be very easy to kill it. It was super late rolling out on the Home Hub, added nothing consumers didn't have already, and would not be noticed when it was gone. Besides there was always a political turf war about those display devices in which certain product teams (with the ear of people higher up) really thought they should be running Android. Unfortunately Android was a pig and couldn't reasonably perform on the bargain-basement SoC that was used. If Fuchsia was gone, Android would take over.
- vineyardmike 4y ago
  > last I looked Chromecast was still a thing, so the OS distrib is still there and shipping on devices Chromecast for TV now runs android, CastOS use cases are mostly moved to android or fuchsia now. > There were no feature advantages to the Fuchsia transition I agree, yet I'm glad they did this just for the interestingness of technology. (Theoretically, the Rust based OS may have better security/protection against memory/buffer issues, but thats surely overshadowed by the bug risk of a new OS) > It would actually be very easy to kill it My understanding from my time there is that CastOS isn't in a shipping-new-features state anymore. > If Fuchsia was gone, Android would take over. This is why the announced Pixel Tablet is also a hub device.
  - stuaxo 4y ago
    It should be slightly less janky than Android with all the Java in it. There are still a lot of midrange phones out there, and IOS has always felt smoother.
    - ignoramous 4y ago
      > It should be slightly less janky than Android with all the Java in it. GP comment mentions that userspace apps on Fuschia are predominantly Flutter apps, which isn't only running Dart (in a VM), but also using Skia for 2D (and 3D?) graphics, and that isn't going to go faster than native. With Fuschia, I believe the primary objective has always been a secure kernel base to build the rest of the OS upon. Even ignoring its vast codebase (think: openvpn/ipsec v wireguard), that is pretty hard to do with Linux without performance costs or support from underlying architectures (ex: https://github.com/google/kernel-sanitizers https://github.com/google/kernel-sanitizers). The Android Runtime otoh has long moved to AOT for hot-paths (profile-guided optimization) and JIT for the cold ones.
      - pjmlp 4y ago
        Dart is also AOT/JIT compiled since version 2 was introduced.
    - 4y ago
rvz 4y ago
Cutting 16% is a sign that Google has over hired. > Maybe they realized that they can't afford to build a new full-feature operating system that they'll never use for anything more than a smart speaker, so they're cutting 16+% of the scope. An OS that is able to run the Chrome Browser? [0] The code to make this function is already there and I think this effort is more than just for smart speakers or Nest devices. [0] https://9to5google.com/2022/03/04/full-google-chrome-browser-running-on-fuchsia/ https://9to5google.com/2022/03/04/full-google-chrome-browser...
- adql 4y ago
  And how it runs the chrome browser better than Linux? That's the question. Saving a meg of memory for OS doesn't matter once you start running hundreds of megs of code, and different, less popular kernel just means less drivers and harder onboarding for any developer
  - waych 4y ago
    You're right; it isn't about saving a meg of ram. To Google Fuschia is about having a better (to them) alternative than Linux. GPL is a pain in the ass when working with hardware vendors and getting driver code produced. Fuschia is about having an alternative they control where the user will never get copyleft access to driver sources.
    - vetinari 4y ago
      It's not like most Android vendors -- or their SoC providers -- aren't ignoring GPL anyway. Inside these drivers, there's nothing world-shatteringly innovative, except by not publishing the sources they are not showing the low quality job they do, and make reuse, updating of their devices more difficult.
yellow_lead 4y ago
> I hope more organizations started to invest in fuchsia before it dies inside google. I hope they don't. There is no incentive to contribute to such a project where you have 0 influence - especially when it is steered directly by a potential competitor. From Fuschia's governance page: > Google steers the direction of Fuchsia and makes platform decisions related to Fuchsia. While Googlers contribute substantially to Fuchsia’s code base, the Fuchsia project encourages contributions from anyone, not just from Googlers [1]. Why would any other tech company contribute to something like this? [1] https://fuchsia.dev/fuchsia-src/contribute/governance/governance https://fuchsia.dev/fuchsia-src/contribute/governance/govern...
- adql 4y ago
  I'd imagine any company trying to contribute to android would nope the fuck out of even trying to contribute to any google-led project. Also it appears to be in the weird niche between "big" OSes like Linux and "microncontroller/embedded OSes" like FreeRTOS or seL4, with outward-facing features begin "It's from google" and "it's new"
- hollerith 4y ago
  Although they probably can't call it Fuchsia, the license is such that anyone can create a fork of Fuchsia.
- vineyardmike 4y ago
  > Why would any other tech company contribute to something like this? It’s a new OS without a lot of the baggage and legacy stuff of Linux/etc. I agree the Google-influence makes it hard, but it could be a valuable target for other companies IOT work. They’d probably need to maintain a fork though.
  - selfhoster11 4y ago
    If said “legacy stuff” are things like an ethos of user freedom, then I don’t see a reason to keep Fuchsia.
    - 4y ago
x98asfd 4y ago
>Fuchsia is in production; in people's homes today. You can't kill the whole project without a plan for those devices. What if there is a bug in the kernel? Who's going to fix those devices, who's going to ensure a security update comes out? Given google's track record (cutting that RSS feed) wouldn't surprise me they would just cut the whole project. They main bread and butter is somewhere else. It is time to move away from this company product.
- hgsgm 4y ago
  10 years ago, Google cancelled a mildly popular $0 revenue web app.
  - vetinari 4y ago
    Seems they killed a tiny bit more that a mildly popular $0 revenue web app: https://killedbygoogle.com/ https://killedbygoogle.com/
- vineyardmike 4y ago
  Cutting a feature on their Mail client is different from a physically shipped product. I agree though, maybe Google should drop the entire device’s organization. Or spin-off nest.
talideon 4y ago
> You can't kill the whole project without a plan for those devices. looks at the graveyard of past Google projects Which isn't to say you don't have a point, but Google do have form in killing stuff just like that.
blacklion 4y ago
> You can't kill the whole project without a plan for those devices. Yes, you can. If small company can kill eye prosthetics project and leave people with implants without support, why does Google cannot kill thermostats project? Google is known by killing projects which are still used by thousands, without any replacement.
- bombcar 4y ago
  You can’t kill the thermostat project if the thermostats were installed in the offices and C-level exec’s houses.
- agloeregrets 4y ago
  Fuschia powers the current, on sale, Nest Hub
  - antoniuschan99 4y ago
    The Google Way would be to create an internal competitor to Nest :P
  - WorldMaker 4y ago
    Lots of companies sell things they no longer plan to support long term simply because they have inventory. (ETA: Not that that's a good thing, mind you. There's a placard a few blocks from my home about the birth of Truth in Advertising as a reminder it was a hard-fought thing, easily lost. Some would say it is lost in modern advertising.)
jbirer 4y ago
I worked briefly on Fuchsia and LK (little kernel), years ago, as a contributor. First of all, Fuchsia is SMALL. I mean it could easily be maintained and developed by 50 people. The kernel is tiny despite being of many modules and so is the application layer. I don't see any problems wit the 16% lay off.
- yafbum 4y ago
  Exactly. So why not a 85% cut from 400 to 50, instead of 16%? What strategic purpose does a reduction in workforce serve it it's not materially realigning staffing on updated business priorities, such as putting the effort on a very clear pause? I don't think 16% is going to change the objectives and priorities of a team. Just gonna make them slower.
deleted 4y ago
[deleted]

yafbum 4y ago

Ok maybe not 100% but 300 people aren't needed to do the occasional security patch for some kind of smart speaker. Sounds like the future of this project is towards the trashcan then.

cmrdporcupine 4y ago

> Fuchsia is in production; in people's homes today. You can't kill the whole project without a plan for those devices. Those devices never used to run Fuchsia, they ran the Chromecast linux distrib. When I left that team half the devices (the small ones) were being re-flashed with Fuchsia, but the big ones were still running Chromecast. The UI layer was the same (Flutter-based) on both and a consumer can't tell the difference. There were no feature advantages to the Fuchsia transition. (In fact the opposite since a bunch of stuff [e.g. accessibility features] had to be rewritten from scratch) I'm sure some stuff has bitrotted, but last I looked Chromecast was still a thing, so the OS distrib is still there and shipping on devices. And it will still run on those devices in the field. Not actually suggesting this as a course of action, but I think you're wrong that they have no alternative to keeping Fuchsia. It would actually be very easy to kill it. It was super late rolling out on the Home Hub, added nothing consumers didn't have already, and would not be noticed when it was gone. Besides there was always a political turf war about those display devices in which certain product teams (with the ear of people higher up) really thought they should be running Android. Unfortunately Android was a pig and couldn't reasonably perform on the bargain-basement SoC that was used. If Fuchsia was gone, Android would take over.

vineyardmike 4y ago
> last I looked Chromecast was still a thing, so the OS distrib is still there and shipping on devices Chromecast for TV now runs android, CastOS use cases are mostly moved to android or fuchsia now. > There were no feature advantages to the Fuchsia transition I agree, yet I'm glad they did this just for the interestingness of technology. (Theoretically, the Rust based OS may have better security/protection against memory/buffer issues, but thats surely overshadowed by the bug risk of a new OS) > It would actually be very easy to kill it My understanding from my time there is that CastOS isn't in a shipping-new-features state anymore. > If Fuchsia was gone, Android would take over. This is why the announced Pixel Tablet is also a hub device.
- stuaxo 4y ago
  It should be slightly less janky than Android with all the Java in it. There are still a lot of midrange phones out there, and IOS has always felt smoother.
  - ignoramous 4y ago
    > It should be slightly less janky than Android with all the Java in it. GP comment mentions that userspace apps on Fuschia are predominantly Flutter apps, which isn't only running Dart (in a VM), but also using Skia for 2D (and 3D?) graphics, and that isn't going to go faster than native. With Fuschia, I believe the primary objective has always been a secure kernel base to build the rest of the OS upon. Even ignoring its vast codebase (think: openvpn/ipsec v wireguard), that is pretty hard to do with Linux without performance costs or support from underlying architectures (ex: https://github.com/google/kernel-sanitizers https://github.com/google/kernel-sanitizers). The Android Runtime otoh has long moved to AOT for hot-paths (profile-guided optimization) and JIT for the cold ones.
    - pjmlp 4y ago
      Dart is also AOT/JIT compiled since version 2 was introduced.
  - 4y ago

rvz 4y ago

Cutting 16% is a sign that Google has over hired. > Maybe they realized that they can't afford to build a new full-feature operating system that they'll never use for anything more than a smart speaker, so they're cutting 16+% of the scope. An OS that is able to run the Chrome Browser? [0] The code to make this function is already there and I think this effort is more than just for smart speakers or Nest devices. [0] https://9to5google.com/2022/03/04/full-google-chrome-browser-running-on-fuchsia/ https://9to5google.com/2022/03/04/full-google-chrome-browser...

adql 4y ago
And how it runs the chrome browser better than Linux? That's the question. Saving a meg of memory for OS doesn't matter once you start running hundreds of megs of code, and different, less popular kernel just means less drivers and harder onboarding for any developer
- waych 4y ago
  You're right; it isn't about saving a meg of ram. To Google Fuschia is about having a better (to them) alternative than Linux. GPL is a pain in the ass when working with hardware vendors and getting driver code produced. Fuschia is about having an alternative they control where the user will never get copyleft access to driver sources.
  - vetinari 4y ago
    It's not like most Android vendors -- or their SoC providers -- aren't ignoring GPL anyway. Inside these drivers, there's nothing world-shatteringly innovative, except by not publishing the sources they are not showing the low quality job they do, and make reuse, updating of their devices more difficult.

yellow_lead 4y ago

> I hope more organizations started to invest in fuchsia before it dies inside google. I hope they don't. There is no incentive to contribute to such a project where you have 0 influence - especially when it is steered directly by a potential competitor. From Fuschia's governance page: > Google steers the direction of Fuchsia and makes platform decisions related to Fuchsia. While Googlers contribute substantially to Fuchsia’s code base, the Fuchsia project encourages contributions from anyone, not just from Googlers [1]. Why would any other tech company contribute to something like this? [1] https://fuchsia.dev/fuchsia-src/contribute/governance/governance https://fuchsia.dev/fuchsia-src/contribute/governance/govern...

adql 4y ago
I'd imagine any company trying to contribute to android would nope the fuck out of even trying to contribute to any google-led project. Also it appears to be in the weird niche between "big" OSes like Linux and "microncontroller/embedded OSes" like FreeRTOS or seL4, with outward-facing features begin "It's from google" and "it's new"
hollerith 4y ago
Although they probably can't call it Fuchsia, the license is such that anyone can create a fork of Fuchsia.
vineyardmike 4y ago
> Why would any other tech company contribute to something like this? It’s a new OS without a lot of the baggage and legacy stuff of Linux/etc. I agree the Google-influence makes it hard, but it could be a valuable target for other companies IOT work. They’d probably need to maintain a fork though.
- selfhoster11 4y ago
  If said “legacy stuff” are things like an ethos of user freedom, then I don’t see a reason to keep Fuchsia.
  - 4y ago

x98asfd 4y ago

>Fuchsia is in production; in people's homes today. You can't kill the whole project without a plan for those devices. What if there is a bug in the kernel? Who's going to fix those devices, who's going to ensure a security update comes out? Given google's track record (cutting that RSS feed) wouldn't surprise me they would just cut the whole project. They main bread and butter is somewhere else. It is time to move away from this company product.

hgsgm 4y ago
10 years ago, Google cancelled a mildly popular $0 revenue web app.
- vetinari 4y ago
  Seems they killed a tiny bit more that a mildly popular $0 revenue web app: https://killedbygoogle.com/ https://killedbygoogle.com/
vineyardmike 4y ago
Cutting a feature on their Mail client is different from a physically shipped product. I agree though, maybe Google should drop the entire device’s organization. Or spin-off nest.

talideon 4y ago

> You can't kill the whole project without a plan for those devices. looks at the graveyard of past Google projects Which isn't to say you don't have a point, but Google do have form in killing stuff just like that.

blacklion 4y ago

> You can't kill the whole project without a plan for those devices. Yes, you can. If small company can kill eye prosthetics project and leave people with implants without support, why does Google cannot kill thermostats project? Google is known by killing projects which are still used by thousands, without any replacement.

bombcar 4y ago
You can’t kill the thermostat project if the thermostats were installed in the offices and C-level exec’s houses.
agloeregrets 4y ago
Fuschia powers the current, on sale, Nest Hub
- antoniuschan99 4y ago
  The Google Way would be to create an internal competitor to Nest :P
- WorldMaker 4y ago
  Lots of companies sell things they no longer plan to support long term simply because they have inventory. (ETA: Not that that's a good thing, mind you. There's a placard a few blocks from my home about the birth of Truth in Advertising as a reminder it was a hard-fought thing, easily lost. Some would say it is lost in modern advertising.)

jbirer 4y ago

I worked briefly on Fuchsia and LK (little kernel), years ago, as a contributor. First of all, Fuchsia is SMALL. I mean it could easily be maintained and developed by 50 people. The kernel is tiny despite being of many modules and so is the application layer. I don't see any problems wit the 16% lay off.

yafbum 4y ago
Exactly. So why not a 85% cut from 400 to 50, instead of 16%? What strategic purpose does a reduction in workforce serve it it's not materially realigning staffing on updated business priorities, such as putting the effort on a very clear pause? I don't think 16% is going to change the objectives and priorities of a team. Just gonna make them slower.

deleted 4y ago

[deleted]