7 ms·

Come on... Camorra, 'Ndrangheta and Mafia are not the same thing. Neither every one that borrows money at too high interest comes from Mafia. There is not such

Come on... Camorra, 'Ndrangheta and Mafia are not the same thing. Neither every one that borrows money at too high interest comes from Mafia. There is not such thing as a huge, bank, single, Mafia organization in Italy. And in this article there are not even comparison of this crime (extortionate lending) in Italy with other countries.

andreadallera 15y ago
In the article, they probably meant "organized crime" as a whole. To a foreigner, Camorra and 'Ndrangheta don't say much.
- viandante 15y ago
  They are not a huge single organized crime organization as the article says. There is no such thing. I bet legal lobbies in US deal with much more power and money than the single most powerful crime org in Italy.
roel_v 15y ago
"And in this article there are not even comparison of this crime (extortionate lending) in Italy with other countries." I'm not sure what you mean by this, but if you're insinuating that it happens across Europe, then that's not true. The "extortionate lending market' so to say (of the extra-legal kind) is very, very small (to the point of non-existent) in Western European countries, whereas (according to this article and some others I've read) it's a sizable portion of Italy's GDP. That's an unacceptable situation.
- viandante 15y ago
  You are probably right. But until somebody shows me a table comparing OCSE countries, I keep thinking the writer of the article has watched too many movies of the Godfather.
- gioele 15y ago
  > "And in this article there are not even comparison of this crime (extortionate lending) in Italy with other countries." > I'm not sure what you mean by this, but if you're insinuating that it happens across Europe, then that's not true. Italian-based organized crime does its business everywhere in Europe with success. The only difference is that in Italy this dirty business is not hidden at all because criminals also run "consumer branches", while in the rest of EU they hide themselves behind commercial banks or companies. Take for example waste management and disposal. Most of EU and international waste goes through the hand of organised crime [1] that offer lower prices and more efficient services to municipalities and states. This always happens through proxy companies with crystal-clear records. Germany thought it was free of organised crime. Then the Duisburg killing happened [2] and they opened their eyes. [1] http://books.google.co.uk/books?id=83BVyffqnJEC&pg=PA117&lpg=PA117&dq=european+waste++mafia&source=bl&ots=_ojxOM3aTs&sig=bVpwsNzIYOSQRWF1-LbEolobuQQ&hl=en&sa=X&ei=WZwNT_3HPMT5sgaxw73CBA&redir_esc=y#v=onepage&q=european%20waste%20%20mafia&f=false http://books.google.co.uk/books?id=83BVyffqnJEC&pg=PA117... [2] http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mafiamorde_von_Duisburg http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mafiamorde_von_Duisburg
  - makronized 15y ago
    You're right. Some people don't understand the importance of Mafia in all the world - maybe 100 years ago it was limited to Italy, then it moved to USA, to East-Europe and so on, but mass-media still say it's limited to Italy. Ok, keep on living in the wonderland, I can't say any more.. They're "using" what they've earned in decades of selling drugs, prostitution and so on. Now they're honest employers recycling money. That's it. I suggest you to read some books from Salvatore Lupo (Giovanni Falcone's "Cose di Cosa Nostra" too is a good introduction, ...), an Italian historian, whose activity is centered to study mafia and its origins.
  - SilasX 15y ago
    Isn't their "higher efficiency" of waste disposal due to the fact they just dump it into the ocean rather than doing it properly? http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Radioactive_waste_dumping_by_the_Ndrangheta http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Radioactive_waste_dumping_by_th... The link also mentions the possibility that this is what pissed off Somalis and spurred the takeoff of piracy. (Not trying to justify it, please flame me for the right reason.)
sasvari 15y ago
Come on... Camorra, 'Ndrangheta and Mafia are not the same thing. Does it really matter? Isn't it more like you can see them as different branches of The Mafia, merely distinguishable from one another by their operation area (inside Italy)? The fact that Italian economy (and government, or society as a whole? But this would be another discussion!) is highly infiltrated by The Mafia (either active, by protection money or via loan-sharking, i.e.) and that an economic crises is a gift from heaven for them (there's a lot of black money to be laundered, in one way or the other), there's no need to distinguish between the different groups, IMHO. I don't say that these groups and implications are an Italian singularity, but in Italy the implications for the Economy are maybe the worst (at least in the Western world). Or maybe I'm just naive?
- viandante 15y ago
  Where are you from? If you are from US, what you say is like taking all the criminal bands and small org across US and say: look what the US mob is doing...
  - sasvari 15y ago
    I think, in this case and discussion, it's just about the scale of the influence and power. So yes, if you want to measure the influence and the power of the american mob to the US economy: sum it up and don't distinguish between different groups.
    - viandante 15y ago
      I agree on the scale, but then you really need to put a table comparing with other countries. What happens if I say Italians eat 100 M tonnes of ice scream per year? Is it a lot? A lot compared to what? I don't agree on the influence and power and that's exactly the point. If you sum up all the US criminals, you get a raw index of criminality in the country, not how much power few criminals have over US people. If all US criminals where part of the same organization, the infamous US mob, that would be a huge problem then. But US mob does not exist, the same as Mafia does not rule all criminality in Italy.
- 15y ago
sunchild 15y ago
Thank you. Pretty much any time you see the term "Mafia", you know you're dealing with amateur pseudo-journalism. I came here to point out that Sicilian organized crime is probably not the "bank" here. Sicilian crime syndicates are generally not as powerful as the Campania/Napoli groups these days. The Sicilian tradition of protection rackets is actually based on an (arguably) noble history of maintaining the integrity of blood family against a constant stream of outside conquerors. I'm not defending organized crime in any way shape or form, but lumping the protection rackets together with drug traffickers and other gangs is just kind of wrong on some level.
- bcks 15y ago
  Your Sicily example and the article remind me of other "syndicates" operating in the wake of disaster and conflict. I'd read somewhere that the Yakuza have been tolerated for so long in Japan because of the social services and "protection" / "law enforcement" they provided in the aftermath of World War II. In Beirut, Hezbollah provides social services and protection that the State can't (or won't) particularly to the marginalized Palestinian refugee population. Likewise, I'm not defending the tactics, but there's an interesting thread here.
  - sunchild 15y ago
    It's definitely a common theme around the world. I think it's not a coincidence that these places are islands or geographic crossroads where outside invasions are frequent during their history. Speaking of Japan, here's another interesting variation on the theme: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zaibatsu http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zaibatsu Note that the names of the Zaibatsu families are some of today's biggest names in industry and finance.

andreadallera 15y ago

In the article, they probably meant "organized crime" as a whole. To a foreigner, Camorra and 'Ndrangheta don't say much.

viandante 15y ago
They are not a huge single organized crime organization as the article says. There is no such thing. I bet legal lobbies in US deal with much more power and money than the single most powerful crime org in Italy.

roel_v 15y ago

"And in this article there are not even comparison of this crime (extortionate lending) in Italy with other countries." I'm not sure what you mean by this, but if you're insinuating that it happens across Europe, then that's not true. The "extortionate lending market' so to say (of the extra-legal kind) is very, very small (to the point of non-existent) in Western European countries, whereas (according to this article and some others I've read) it's a sizable portion of Italy's GDP. That's an unacceptable situation.

viandante 15y ago
You are probably right. But until somebody shows me a table comparing OCSE countries, I keep thinking the writer of the article has watched too many movies of the Godfather.
gioele 15y ago
> "And in this article there are not even comparison of this crime (extortionate lending) in Italy with other countries." > I'm not sure what you mean by this, but if you're insinuating that it happens across Europe, then that's not true. Italian-based organized crime does its business everywhere in Europe with success. The only difference is that in Italy this dirty business is not hidden at all because criminals also run "consumer branches", while in the rest of EU they hide themselves behind commercial banks or companies. Take for example waste management and disposal. Most of EU and international waste goes through the hand of organised crime [1] that offer lower prices and more efficient services to municipalities and states. This always happens through proxy companies with crystal-clear records. Germany thought it was free of organised crime. Then the Duisburg killing happened [2] and they opened their eyes. [1] http://books.google.co.uk/books?id=83BVyffqnJEC&pg=PA117&lpg=PA117&dq=european+waste++mafia&source=bl&ots=_ojxOM3aTs&sig=bVpwsNzIYOSQRWF1-LbEolobuQQ&hl=en&sa=X&ei=WZwNT_3HPMT5sgaxw73CBA&redir_esc=y#v=onepage&q=european%20waste%20%20mafia&f=false http://books.google.co.uk/books?id=83BVyffqnJEC&pg=PA117... [2] http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mafiamorde_von_Duisburg http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mafiamorde_von_Duisburg
- makronized 15y ago
  You're right. Some people don't understand the importance of Mafia in all the world - maybe 100 years ago it was limited to Italy, then it moved to USA, to East-Europe and so on, but mass-media still say it's limited to Italy. Ok, keep on living in the wonderland, I can't say any more.. They're "using" what they've earned in decades of selling drugs, prostitution and so on. Now they're honest employers recycling money. That's it. I suggest you to read some books from Salvatore Lupo (Giovanni Falcone's "Cose di Cosa Nostra" too is a good introduction, ...), an Italian historian, whose activity is centered to study mafia and its origins.
- SilasX 15y ago
  Isn't their "higher efficiency" of waste disposal due to the fact they just dump it into the ocean rather than doing it properly? http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Radioactive_waste_dumping_by_the_Ndrangheta http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Radioactive_waste_dumping_by_th... The link also mentions the possibility that this is what pissed off Somalis and spurred the takeoff of piracy. (Not trying to justify it, please flame me for the right reason.)

sasvari 15y ago

Come on... Camorra, 'Ndrangheta and Mafia are not the same thing. Does it really matter? Isn't it more like you can see them as different branches of The Mafia, merely distinguishable from one another by their operation area (inside Italy)? The fact that Italian economy (and government, or society as a whole? But this would be another discussion!) is highly infiltrated by The Mafia (either active, by protection money or via loan-sharking, i.e.) and that an economic crises is a gift from heaven for them (there's a lot of black money to be laundered, in one way or the other), there's no need to distinguish between the different groups, IMHO. I don't say that these groups and implications are an Italian singularity, but in Italy the implications for the Economy are maybe the worst (at least in the Western world). Or maybe I'm just naive?

viandante 15y ago
Where are you from? If you are from US, what you say is like taking all the criminal bands and small org across US and say: look what the US mob is doing...
- sasvari 15y ago
  I think, in this case and discussion, it's just about the scale of the influence and power. So yes, if you want to measure the influence and the power of the american mob to the US economy: sum it up and don't distinguish between different groups.
  - viandante 15y ago
    I agree on the scale, but then you really need to put a table comparing with other countries. What happens if I say Italians eat 100 M tonnes of ice scream per year? Is it a lot? A lot compared to what? I don't agree on the influence and power and that's exactly the point. If you sum up all the US criminals, you get a raw index of criminality in the country, not how much power few criminals have over US people. If all US criminals where part of the same organization, the infamous US mob, that would be a huge problem then. But US mob does not exist, the same as Mafia does not rule all criminality in Italy.
15y ago

sunchild 15y ago

Thank you. Pretty much any time you see the term "Mafia", you know you're dealing with amateur pseudo-journalism. I came here to point out that Sicilian organized crime is probably not the "bank" here. Sicilian crime syndicates are generally not as powerful as the Campania/Napoli groups these days. The Sicilian tradition of protection rackets is actually based on an (arguably) noble history of maintaining the integrity of blood family against a constant stream of outside conquerors. I'm not defending organized crime in any way shape or form, but lumping the protection rackets together with drug traffickers and other gangs is just kind of wrong on some level.

bcks 15y ago
Your Sicily example and the article remind me of other "syndicates" operating in the wake of disaster and conflict. I'd read somewhere that the Yakuza have been tolerated for so long in Japan because of the social services and "protection" / "law enforcement" they provided in the aftermath of World War II. In Beirut, Hezbollah provides social services and protection that the State can't (or won't) particularly to the marginalized Palestinian refugee population. Likewise, I'm not defending the tactics, but there's an interesting thread here.
- sunchild 15y ago
  It's definitely a common theme around the world. I think it's not a coincidence that these places are islands or geographic crossroads where outside invasions are frequent during their history. Speaking of Japan, here's another interesting variation on the theme: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zaibatsu http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zaibatsu Note that the names of the Zaibatsu families are some of today's biggest names in industry and finance.