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MAGA didn't have a whole canon of pseudo theory a la Karl Marx. Bit of a stretch to compare normie-level citizen political interest to a cloak and dagger ideol

by NHQ 4y ago

MAGA didn't have a whole canon of pseudo theory a la Karl Marx. Bit of a stretch to compare normie-level citizen political interest to a cloak and dagger ideological revolution. Communism has a savior complex, international adherents, a whole manifesto, and curious ethnic persuasions. MAGA had broad appeal without the mysticism and radicalism.

canucklady 4y ago
Yes fascism has broad appeal without a cohesive ideology. It seems like in your telling that's a positive?
- NHQ 4y ago
  Fascism by definition would not be cohesive, but whoever wins power is sure to bring it together as best they can. As i understand it, fascism is simply joining political groups according to core values. Fascism in Italy was a response to communist subterfuge. Communism is pure ideology, an intellectual politics. When there is war, famine, strife, suddenly politics of ideas don't make a lot sense. Core values switch from identity to survival. That didn't stop the communist from trying to establish a new rule amidst the strife, and communists are known to use destabilization tactics everywhere they want regime change. In fact, nothing is below communists tactics, because they believe they are liberating you. I would say any reaction to that in a time of crisis is justified. Communists are just fascists about vague ideas they have been led to believe. Whereas no ideology is required for a politics of basic needs and survival.
  - phs318u 4y ago
    What you're describing (of Communists) sounds exactly like the Crusaders, Al Qaida, and many of the "actions" (ostensibly in the name of liberal democracy) since the 50's (I include here various small and not-so-small wars, and engineered coups). The "faithful" behind all those causes believed they were "liberating" others too. With similar ends-driving-means behaviours and outcomes. I suspect that in most of those examples too, the motivations of most of the leaders was far more banal.
    - NHQ 4y ago
      Sure, and now you have to reckon that 9/11 was not done from the top by radical "jihadists". In other words, fanatical muslims could not have been the real planners, only the brainwashed operators. What banal, even-headed plan was 9/11 then? And who was really behind it? The act of 9/11 was dramatic, but hardly tactical, unless the tactic was to have the U.S. respond a certain way. Like the author the book in this thread, 9/11 operators probably acted against their own interests. In other words, Muslims could not have been behind the actual thinking, for any intelligent leader would know the U.S. would retaliate hard.
phs318u 4y ago
I find it hard to take your comment seriously when you imply that unlike Communism, MAGA doesn’t have a saviour complex. The regard that many MAGA adherents hold Donald Trump could only be described as messianic. EDITED to add that MAGA has its own canon of pseudo-theory based on the mythology of QAnon.
- NHQ 4y ago
  You're saying QAnon on 4chan is the same as Karl Marx, Lenin, international conspiracy, etc? Which one led to one world war already, Communism or QAnon? Which one might turn Ukraine/Russia into the next one? Trump/QAnon mythos is for memes, maybe a little cope, nobody believes Trump is a true messiah. MAGA was a hat, not a political philosophy backed by ideologues the world over. Communists really believe they are doing liberation politics or w/e. MAGA folks just want to BBQ or w/e. MAGA people are not lining to force regime changes in foreign countries. MAGA was a movement, communism is a whole ideology. EDIT: by savior complex, i mean they think they are saving you, from capitalism. MAGA-likes have no such complex about saving other people. They would never join a foreign legion like communists did.
  - phs318u 4y ago
    You raise some interesting points. In your first statement you juxtapose QAnon vs Marx and Lenin (I presume you mean the bodies of political theory they propose), AND ... international conspiracy. Firstly, QAnon is entirely embracing of international conspiracies, embracing and reframing existing ones and generating new variations. Secondly, in the minds of "believers" who, I would hazard a guess, have not dived deeply into their team's canon - yes - they are effectively the same. A body of thought that drives particular fervently held beliefs and behaviours irrespective of the actual details. True believers don't care about details in the same way that fundamentalist christians don't care about biblical scholarship. You are clearly wrong stating that nobody believes Trump is a true messiah. As evidence, I refer you to consider just a few of these videos. You won't have to scroll far. https://www.youtube.com/results?search_query=donald+trump+messiah https://www.youtube.com/results?search_query=donald+trump+me... As evidence that MAGA is considered as more than just a hat (by the MAGA equivalent of the intellectual elites and their readers), I offer "The MAGA Doctrine" by Charlie Kirk, which is clearly highly rated by the over 2000 people that bothered to rate it. https://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/0062974688/reasonmagazinea-20/ https://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/0062974688/reasonmag... You state that "MAGA folks just want to BBQ" as if Jan 6 never happened. Really? Can you really sustain the belief that those folks were all a bunch of pranksters and didn't come with a belief that they were going to change America?

by NHQ 4y ago

canucklady 4y ago

Yes fascism has broad appeal without a cohesive ideology. It seems like in your telling that's a positive?

NHQ 4y ago
Fascism by definition would not be cohesive, but whoever wins power is sure to bring it together as best they can. As i understand it, fascism is simply joining political groups according to core values. Fascism in Italy was a response to communist subterfuge. Communism is pure ideology, an intellectual politics. When there is war, famine, strife, suddenly politics of ideas don't make a lot sense. Core values switch from identity to survival. That didn't stop the communist from trying to establish a new rule amidst the strife, and communists are known to use destabilization tactics everywhere they want regime change. In fact, nothing is below communists tactics, because they believe they are liberating you. I would say any reaction to that in a time of crisis is justified. Communists are just fascists about vague ideas they have been led to believe. Whereas no ideology is required for a politics of basic needs and survival.
- phs318u 4y ago
  What you're describing (of Communists) sounds exactly like the Crusaders, Al Qaida, and many of the "actions" (ostensibly in the name of liberal democracy) since the 50's (I include here various small and not-so-small wars, and engineered coups). The "faithful" behind all those causes believed they were "liberating" others too. With similar ends-driving-means behaviours and outcomes. I suspect that in most of those examples too, the motivations of most of the leaders was far more banal.
  - NHQ 4y ago
    Sure, and now you have to reckon that 9/11 was not done from the top by radical "jihadists". In other words, fanatical muslims could not have been the real planners, only the brainwashed operators. What banal, even-headed plan was 9/11 then? And who was really behind it? The act of 9/11 was dramatic, but hardly tactical, unless the tactic was to have the U.S. respond a certain way. Like the author the book in this thread, 9/11 operators probably acted against their own interests. In other words, Muslims could not have been behind the actual thinking, for any intelligent leader would know the U.S. would retaliate hard.

phs318u 4y ago

I find it hard to take your comment seriously when you imply that unlike Communism, MAGA doesn’t have a saviour complex. The regard that many MAGA adherents hold Donald Trump could only be described as messianic. EDITED to add that MAGA has its own canon of pseudo-theory based on the mythology of QAnon.

NHQ 4y ago
You're saying QAnon on 4chan is the same as Karl Marx, Lenin, international conspiracy, etc? Which one led to one world war already, Communism or QAnon? Which one might turn Ukraine/Russia into the next one? Trump/QAnon mythos is for memes, maybe a little cope, nobody believes Trump is a true messiah. MAGA was a hat, not a political philosophy backed by ideologues the world over. Communists really believe they are doing liberation politics or w/e. MAGA folks just want to BBQ or w/e. MAGA people are not lining to force regime changes in foreign countries. MAGA was a movement, communism is a whole ideology. EDIT: by savior complex, i mean they think they are saving you, from capitalism. MAGA-likes have no such complex about saving other people. They would never join a foreign legion like communists did.
- phs318u 4y ago
  You raise some interesting points. In your first statement you juxtapose QAnon vs Marx and Lenin (I presume you mean the bodies of political theory they propose), AND ... international conspiracy. Firstly, QAnon is entirely embracing of international conspiracies, embracing and reframing existing ones and generating new variations. Secondly, in the minds of "believers" who, I would hazard a guess, have not dived deeply into their team's canon - yes - they are effectively the same. A body of thought that drives particular fervently held beliefs and behaviours irrespective of the actual details. True believers don't care about details in the same way that fundamentalist christians don't care about biblical scholarship. You are clearly wrong stating that nobody believes Trump is a true messiah. As evidence, I refer you to consider just a few of these videos. You won't have to scroll far. https://www.youtube.com/results?search_query=donald+trump+messiah https://www.youtube.com/results?search_query=donald+trump+me... As evidence that MAGA is considered as more than just a hat (by the MAGA equivalent of the intellectual elites and their readers), I offer "The MAGA Doctrine" by Charlie Kirk, which is clearly highly rated by the over 2000 people that bothered to rate it. https://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/0062974688/reasonmagazinea-20/ https://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/0062974688/reasonmag... You state that "MAGA folks just want to BBQ" as if Jan 6 never happened. Really? Can you really sustain the belief that those folks were all a bunch of pranksters and didn't come with a belief that they were going to change America?