4 ms·

Truthfully, while it IS well established, this is only because the class of “owners” have beaten it into us (workers/consumers) and it is a great example of cap

Truthfully, while it IS well established, this is only because the class of “owners” have beaten it into us (workers/consumers) and it is a great example of capitalism gaslighting more exploitation.

jaredhallen 4y ago
Is it capitalism? That doesn't sound like it's specifically the result of the free market at work. I don't love the situation, but it seems like it's kind of a nuanced history that started with extra incentive for exceptional service, which changed over time. Why? I don't know. But ultimately we (in the US) know that we should be expecting to pay ~20% on top of our bill, and take that into consideration when we're making the decision to eat at a table service establishment.
- thayne 4y ago
  Capitalism doesn't necessarily mean a free market. It just means that capital is controlled by private entities as opposed to the state.
  - AlgorithmicTime 4y ago
    Capitalism is a necessary but not sufficient condition for a free market.
- flandish 4y ago
  Part of the exploitation process, imho inherent to capitalism, involved a migration from your “tip to good service” to “opportunity to save” (money) by the owners. I am, admittedly, a leftist and incredibly untrusting of anything where workers are not an equal part of the ownership in a business, so I know I jump too conclusion/assumption quicker than I prob should. But, I think there is no doubt that there is a lot of FUD around what would happen if staff were paid a living wage, all meant to distract to keep profit in pockets of the owner. (Anecdotally, I don’t remember tipping being the norm when I visited Europe. But it was some time ago.)
  - deafpolygon 4y ago
    Tipping is uncommon here in the NL. You just don't do it - even if they deliver your pizza.. they'll have a delivery charge and that's it. You might do it at high end restaurants, where I've heard of it being done. It's a complete contrast to the US. In more and more restaurants (esp. in NY) tips are becoming given directly to the wait staff less often anyways. They'll put all tips to the tip jar, then the restaurant takes some percent (sometimes as much as 50%) and the rest gets divvied up amongst the wait staff or even the entire restaurant.
  - willywanker 4y ago
    It has nothing to do with 'capitalism', in case you think the alternative is socialism where everything will be perfect (you'll be lucky to get any service at all when salary is not tied to customer satisfaction, as Russians used to their country's culture found to their pleasant surprise when they crowded up at the first McDonald's just before the USSR broke up). And nothing prevents 'workers' from pooling their resources to run a business of their own as a cooperative and split the profits..as well as the losses. Australia has some of the highest minimum wages in the world (with its own negative effect on small business owners) and you pay exactly the sum total of what you ordered on the menu as all prices are quoted inclusive of applicable taxes. Tipping is your prerogative if you feel the service was exemplary. The US needs to get rid of the idea that it is the customer's responsibility to pay servers' wages over and above what they're already paying for the food.
    - flandish 4y ago
      The alternative to capitalism is not socialism, but I understand where you are coming from. I believe the kind of character(capital owner) utilizing the current system is going to be best tuned to exploit; a process made easiest (in regards to US service industries) by our “tipping culture.” > And nothing prevents 'workers' from pooling their resources You are “technically” correct but really so very wrong in practice. That same exploitation driven by capitalism makes it so hard to “pull yourself up by bootstraps” even in a group, if you’re always (by design) one paycheck away from homelessness. (Also a caste kept alive by design.) > The US needs to get rid of the idea that it is the customer's responsibility to pay servers' wages over and above what they're already paying for the food. I completely agree!

jaredhallen 4y ago

Is it capitalism? That doesn't sound like it's specifically the result of the free market at work. I don't love the situation, but it seems like it's kind of a nuanced history that started with extra incentive for exceptional service, which changed over time. Why? I don't know. But ultimately we (in the US) know that we should be expecting to pay ~20% on top of our bill, and take that into consideration when we're making the decision to eat at a table service establishment.

thayne 4y ago
Capitalism doesn't necessarily mean a free market. It just means that capital is controlled by private entities as opposed to the state.
- AlgorithmicTime 4y ago
  Capitalism is a necessary but not sufficient condition for a free market.
flandish 4y ago
Part of the exploitation process, imho inherent to capitalism, involved a migration from your “tip to good service” to “opportunity to save” (money) by the owners. I am, admittedly, a leftist and incredibly untrusting of anything where workers are not an equal part of the ownership in a business, so I know I jump too conclusion/assumption quicker than I prob should. But, I think there is no doubt that there is a lot of FUD around what would happen if staff were paid a living wage, all meant to distract to keep profit in pockets of the owner. (Anecdotally, I don’t remember tipping being the norm when I visited Europe. But it was some time ago.)
- deafpolygon 4y ago
  Tipping is uncommon here in the NL. You just don't do it - even if they deliver your pizza.. they'll have a delivery charge and that's it. You might do it at high end restaurants, where I've heard of it being done. It's a complete contrast to the US. In more and more restaurants (esp. in NY) tips are becoming given directly to the wait staff less often anyways. They'll put all tips to the tip jar, then the restaurant takes some percent (sometimes as much as 50%) and the rest gets divvied up amongst the wait staff or even the entire restaurant.
- willywanker 4y ago
  It has nothing to do with 'capitalism', in case you think the alternative is socialism where everything will be perfect (you'll be lucky to get any service at all when salary is not tied to customer satisfaction, as Russians used to their country's culture found to their pleasant surprise when they crowded up at the first McDonald's just before the USSR broke up). And nothing prevents 'workers' from pooling their resources to run a business of their own as a cooperative and split the profits..as well as the losses. Australia has some of the highest minimum wages in the world (with its own negative effect on small business owners) and you pay exactly the sum total of what you ordered on the menu as all prices are quoted inclusive of applicable taxes. Tipping is your prerogative if you feel the service was exemplary. The US needs to get rid of the idea that it is the customer's responsibility to pay servers' wages over and above what they're already paying for the food.
  - flandish 4y ago
    The alternative to capitalism is not socialism, but I understand where you are coming from. I believe the kind of character(capital owner) utilizing the current system is going to be best tuned to exploit; a process made easiest (in regards to US service industries) by our “tipping culture.” > And nothing prevents 'workers' from pooling their resources You are “technically” correct but really so very wrong in practice. That same exploitation driven by capitalism makes it so hard to “pull yourself up by bootstraps” even in a group, if you’re always (by design) one paycheck away from homelessness. (Also a caste kept alive by design.) > The US needs to get rid of the idea that it is the customer's responsibility to pay servers' wages over and above what they're already paying for the food. I completely agree!