4 ms·

It's not dine and dash if they refuse to accept payment.

michaelmrose 4y ago
Most employee interfaces don't have a way to represent customer paid arbitrary dollars towards their ticket but not all of it. Try this at retail. I'm only going to pay 50c towards that candy bar because that's what I feel like it should cost and ask to swipe your card for 50c. Most systems could represent a payment of less than the cost of the ticket as a partially completed transaction but would be faced with the decision to either complete the ticket or void it returning all funds.
- carlosjobim 4y ago
  If their system is inadequate that is their own problem, certainly not any problem for the customer. Machines are not the masters of people. >Try this at retail I do this all the time in retail, paying part in cash and part by card. No problem at all, cashiers often ask if I have any cash I'd like to use towards the bill first.
  - michaelmrose 4y ago
    If you don't complete the transactions all funds are refunded including previously processed cards. There is essentially no button for customer decided to only pay part of the transaction no funds will be retained. The agent you are dealing with can no more complete half your transaction than you can complete half an amazon order and expect goods to be sent to you.
    - carlosjobim 4y ago
      You've become confused as to the hierarchy. Here is the rule: 1. The human is the master 2. The machine is the slave There is always a way to change an order in a POS system. If there is no button to do that, that is not a concern for the customer.
      - michaelmrose 4y ago
        The employer sets fees the employee just implements and isn't liable to be able to delete a fee. Your disagreement with employers policy isn't employees problem and you making it so kind of makes you the asshole. You ought to inform management that you disagree with the fee and won't be eating there again now that you know about it. You of course can no longer claim not to know about the fee after this point. Deleting the fee case by case would be shitty policy because it adds constant friction. Deleting it wholly and raising prices is the right thing but as mentioned in the article there is a strong incentive to keep the fee structure to avoid losing our to places that do so. The correct thing therefore is to get with city government and forbid the practice because now everyone is incentized to do the right thing. Your suggestion to throw individual temper tantrums all over town is manifestly ineffective compared to my suggestion to pay the piddling fee then fix the underlying problem.
        carlosjobim 4y ago
        You must be quite used to always being right in everything, since you think it's adequate to call somebody an asshole out of the blue when opinions are different. I've managed restaurants and worked professionally with implementing POS systems. Any restaurant owner who tries to force customers pay an extra, hidden fee, after the food has been ordered and consumed knows that what they are doing is fraudulent. Maybe they don't know it is illicit. Every POS system has a way to delete fees and parts of an order. Business would be impossible without this, since waiters make mistakes and have to correct them. And if the system doesn't have that function it is a problem for the restaurant, not for the client. Many people share the same misconception that you have, that somehow the machine or POS system decides what the customer has to do. The purpose of a POS system is to make life easier for your staff - if that is implemented in a way that makes life harder for the customer it means you have failed badly. The human is the master and the machine is the servant. Therefore you as a customer politely but sternly refuse illicit fees when they try to force them on you. Your talk about "going to city government" shows that you don't understand that these kind of fees already are illegal on state and federal levels. Recently the Federal Trade Commission in the United States has committed explicitly [1, 2] towards cracking down hard on these hidden fees, that they call "junk fees" in the hospitality industry. Let me quote for you: "Unavoidable charges imposed on captive consumers: Consumers may be forced to pay junk fees because they have no way to avoid or opt out of them. They might be dealing with a company with a monopoly or exclusive rights that can extract fees because there is no competing option. Or consumers might get hit with fees after they have already sunk costs into a product or service, and they can’t easily walk away." This is from the White House [3]: "Surprise fees that consumers learn about after purchase. Surprise fees that consumers do not expect – and which may not be mandatory – similarly make it hard to comparison shop and can burden household finances." Are they throwing temper tantrums? Are the state attorneys who are successfully prosecuting large hotel chains for junk fees throwing temper tantrums? Is the EU throwing temper tantrums about this? Back in the real world there are countries where it is customary for restaurants to add a service fee - usually 10% - on the final bill. This is clearly stated on the menu, and usually the waiter will ask you for permission to add this fee before bringing you the bill. This system is used instead of tips. If the customer don't want to pay the fee they have the right to refuse it and all restaurants accept such a refusal. Imagine if the waiter said "Sorry, our machine doesn't allow us to remove the fee, so you have to pay. You pay now!". Most would laugh, you would pay. [1] https://news.bloomberglaw.com/us-law-week/prepare-for-renewed-ftc-regulatory-focus-on-hidden-and-junk-fees https://news.bloomberglaw.com/us-law-week/prepare-for-renewe... [2] https://www.ftc.gov/news-events/news/press-releases/2022/10/federal-trade-commission-explores-rule-cracking-down-junk-fees https://www.ftc.gov/news-events/news/press-releases/2022/10/... [3] https://www.whitehouse.gov/briefing-room/blog/2022/10/26/the-presidents-initiative-on-junk-fees-and-related-pricing-practices/ https://www.whitehouse.gov/briefing-room/blog/2022/10/26/the...
- TheCoelacanth 4y ago
  Their POS system, their problem. I tried to pay. They didn't take the money. Not dine and dash.

Most employee interfaces don't have a way to represent customer paid arbitrary dollars towards their ticket but not all of it. Try this at retail. I'm only going to pay 50c towards that candy bar because that's what I feel like it should cost and ask to swipe your card for 50c. Most systems could represent a payment of less than the cost of the ticket as a partially completed transaction but would be faced with the decision to either complete the ticket or void it returning all funds.

carlosjobim 4y ago
If their system is inadequate that is their own problem, certainly not any problem for the customer. Machines are not the masters of people. >Try this at retail I do this all the time in retail, paying part in cash and part by card. No problem at all, cashiers often ask if I have any cash I'd like to use towards the bill first.
- michaelmrose 4y ago
  If you don't complete the transactions all funds are refunded including previously processed cards. There is essentially no button for customer decided to only pay part of the transaction no funds will be retained. The agent you are dealing with can no more complete half your transaction than you can complete half an amazon order and expect goods to be sent to you.
  - carlosjobim 4y ago
    You've become confused as to the hierarchy. Here is the rule: 1. The human is the master 2. The machine is the slave There is always a way to change an order in a POS system. If there is no button to do that, that is not a concern for the customer.
    - michaelmrose 4y ago
      The employer sets fees the employee just implements and isn't liable to be able to delete a fee. Your disagreement with employers policy isn't employees problem and you making it so kind of makes you the asshole. You ought to inform management that you disagree with the fee and won't be eating there again now that you know about it. You of course can no longer claim not to know about the fee after this point. Deleting the fee case by case would be shitty policy because it adds constant friction. Deleting it wholly and raising prices is the right thing but as mentioned in the article there is a strong incentive to keep the fee structure to avoid losing our to places that do so. The correct thing therefore is to get with city government and forbid the practice because now everyone is incentized to do the right thing. Your suggestion to throw individual temper tantrums all over town is manifestly ineffective compared to my suggestion to pay the piddling fee then fix the underlying problem.
      - carlosjobim 4y ago
        You must be quite used to always being right in everything, since you think it's adequate to call somebody an asshole out of the blue when opinions are different. I've managed restaurants and worked professionally with implementing POS systems. Any restaurant owner who tries to force customers pay an extra, hidden fee, after the food has been ordered and consumed knows that what they are doing is fraudulent. Maybe they don't know it is illicit. Every POS system has a way to delete fees and parts of an order. Business would be impossible without this, since waiters make mistakes and have to correct them. And if the system doesn't have that function it is a problem for the restaurant, not for the client. Many people share the same misconception that you have, that somehow the machine or POS system decides what the customer has to do. The purpose of a POS system is to make life easier for your staff - if that is implemented in a way that makes life harder for the customer it means you have failed badly. The human is the master and the machine is the servant. Therefore you as a customer politely but sternly refuse illicit fees when they try to force them on you. Your talk about "going to city government" shows that you don't understand that these kind of fees already are illegal on state and federal levels. Recently the Federal Trade Commission in the United States has committed explicitly [1, 2] towards cracking down hard on these hidden fees, that they call "junk fees" in the hospitality industry. Let me quote for you: "Unavoidable charges imposed on captive consumers: Consumers may be forced to pay junk fees because they have no way to avoid or opt out of them. They might be dealing with a company with a monopoly or exclusive rights that can extract fees because there is no competing option. Or consumers might get hit with fees after they have already sunk costs into a product or service, and they can’t easily walk away." This is from the White House [3]: "Surprise fees that consumers learn about after purchase. Surprise fees that consumers do not expect – and which may not be mandatory – similarly make it hard to comparison shop and can burden household finances." Are they throwing temper tantrums? Are the state attorneys who are successfully prosecuting large hotel chains for junk fees throwing temper tantrums? Is the EU throwing temper tantrums about this? Back in the real world there are countries where it is customary for restaurants to add a service fee - usually 10% - on the final bill. This is clearly stated on the menu, and usually the waiter will ask you for permission to add this fee before bringing you the bill. This system is used instead of tips. If the customer don't want to pay the fee they have the right to refuse it and all restaurants accept such a refusal. Imagine if the waiter said "Sorry, our machine doesn't allow us to remove the fee, so you have to pay. You pay now!". Most would laugh, you would pay. [1] https://news.bloomberglaw.com/us-law-week/prepare-for-renewed-ftc-regulatory-focus-on-hidden-and-junk-fees https://news.bloomberglaw.com/us-law-week/prepare-for-renewe... [2] https://www.ftc.gov/news-events/news/press-releases/2022/10/federal-trade-commission-explores-rule-cracking-down-junk-fees https://www.ftc.gov/news-events/news/press-releases/2022/10/... [3] https://www.whitehouse.gov/briefing-room/blog/2022/10/26/the-presidents-initiative-on-junk-fees-and-related-pricing-practices/ https://www.whitehouse.gov/briefing-room/blog/2022/10/26/the...
TheCoelacanth 4y ago
Their POS system, their problem. I tried to pay. They didn't take the money. Not dine and dash.