4 ms·

It also relies on blank slate theory - ie that all groups should perform equally, and if they don't, that's evidence enough that there is a conspiracy against t

It also relies on blank slate theory - ie that all groups should perform equally, and if they don't, that's evidence enough that there is a conspiracy against them. Perhaps a way to test the "different groups have different abilities" vs "past bias" theory, would be to find people with high IQ / historical record of accomplishment who suffered great historical discrimination and deprivation (eg Ashkenazi Jews from the holocaust, Chinese families purged in the great leap forward) and then compare their descendants test scores and job outcomes in the USA. You could look at outcomes a generation or two afterwards and tell whether their performance was high/low ie was "reversion to high group accomplishment" or "underperformed due to present or previous oppression"

jjeaff 4y ago
There is really no basis for any sort of theory that says underperformance of Black Americans is purely due to genetics. Primarily because genetic diversity among Black people is too broad. In other words, if you randomly compare the genetics between two randomly selected Black people, the difference, on average, will be far greater than comparing any two randomly selected white people. This is simply because all of humanity stems from Africa, so that is where the most diversity lies. There are hundreds of genetic markers involved in something as comparatively simple as skin color. The genetic markers involved in something as complex as intelligence are likely orders of magnitude more complex. You might be able to extrapolate something from certain sub-groups that branch from very narrow branches of the human diaspora, but you certainly could never, ever come up with something that made any sense to apply to the extremely broad strokes that we use to "group" people here in this melting pot we call the USA.
- haihaibye 4y ago
  Nobody has ever claimed a 100% genetic basis of difference. The individual heritability of IQ is .5 to .8 for example Sub-Saharan diversity is a real thing, eg Bantu, Nilotic, Pygmy and Bushmen are extremely diverse (African Americans are not Pygny or Bushmen so not as diverse) But if you use cluster analysis on human genomes and ask it to divide humanity into 2 clusters, it divides humans into Sub Saharan Africans and everyone else. The key is selection not just randomness (most variation does little or nothing) you can't say eg "Africa is the most diverse therefore it will have the best adaptations for altitude" (that would be Tibetans, courtesy of interbreeding with Denisovians) The number of variants responsible for skin color is actually extremely small. It's why you can have such large variation between siblings. In contrast yes intelligence is highly polygenic. However, given sufficient sample sizes you can calculate genome wide association scores and work this all out.
  - s1artibartfast 4y ago
    I think the more telling test for bias (genetic, social, or otherwise) is to compare groups with long standing US ancestry with recent immigrants of the same background and education. My understanding is that while we attribute much of inequality to bias in treatment, recent immigrants and their decedents vastly outperform comparable individuals with the same skin color. To me, this indicates that much of the differences we observe are due to biases of past treatment, opposed to discriminatory treatment in the present.
    - jjeaff 4y ago
      Comparing modern African immigrants to modern day Black Americans descended from enslaved people is not going to get you a clean comparison by any means. Modern African immigrants are one the most highly educated groups of people in the US. And many of them come having already attained that education due to family money, intelligence, whatever. The poor or even average African immigrants has little chance of making it here. In other words, you are comparing an all star team to the general population. And yes, biases of past treatment is one of the main issues that many are trying to correct with affirmative action-like programs. There doesn't have to be any modern, active racism at all to try and correct the terrible damage done in the past on a systemic basis. In many cases, this past injustice is exactly what systemic racism is referring to.
      - s1artibartfast 4y ago
        To be fair, I did say comparable background, which can include education. There easily is enough immigrants, even poor uneducated ones lacrosse decades to make this comparison. From what I read, poor and average immigrants do great, even African ones. Even more so, the first generation born in the US. My greater point doesn't negate the impact of past treatment. If anything, it's strongly supports it. What I think it adds to the conversation is the idea that the challenge is very different than overly simplistic model of skin color discrimination which most people around usually try to reduce everything to. Miss attribution of the root cause leads to ineffective Solutions. I agree that historic impacts can be scoped into the definition of systemic racism, but that doesn't mean that other tenants of systemic racism are not overstated or incorrect.
vannevar 4y ago
From a policy perspective, it makes more sense to assume that past and present bias---which we know exists---is a more likely explanation than genetic inferiority (for which there is no evidence). The burden of proof is on the racial supremicists to provide support for their position, not on the government.
- haihaibye 4y ago
  What's your explanation for the over-performance of the Ashkenazi and Chinese vs US whites? (The comment you replied to)
  - random78965 4y ago
    Cultural emphasis on educational achievement and hard work, for one.
    - haihaibye 4y ago
      Why does everyone find much stronger genetic effects than parental in adoption studies? “Little intergenerational correlation in education was observed in the absence of genetic similarity between parent and child—that is, among adoptees.” https://gwern.net/docs/genetics/heritable/adoption/2021-ludeke.pdf https://gwern.net/docs/genetics/heritable/adoption/2021-lude... “By examining parent-offspring resemblance in a sample of offspring that are among the oldest of any adoption study of IQ to date, we have effectively tested for the presence of parenting effects that would have persisted for more than a decade after the conclusion of the typical rearing period. No such persistence is found to occur in our unique sample.” https://gwern.net/docs/iq/2021-willoughby.pdf https://gwern.net/docs/iq/2021-willoughby.pdf In an adoptive sample of Korean Americans parental income was unrelated to offspring income. https://gwern.net/docs/genetics/heritable/adoption/2007-sacerdote.pdf https://gwern.net/docs/genetics/heritable/adoption/2007-sace...
      - random78965 4y ago
        I'm not sure, that's not my area of expertise! I think it's pretty well-replicated that IQ is more predicted by genetics than any other factor; however, my understanding is that variation in IQ within an ethnic population is much greater than variation between populations. If a population mean is significantly different from others (which appears to be the case with Ashkenazi Jews and Asians), I'd expect the effect to be primarily environmental, not genetic. I don't know enough about the inheritance of intelligence to be sure of this at all, though.

jjeaff 4y ago

There is really no basis for any sort of theory that says underperformance of Black Americans is purely due to genetics. Primarily because genetic diversity among Black people is too broad. In other words, if you randomly compare the genetics between two randomly selected Black people, the difference, on average, will be far greater than comparing any two randomly selected white people. This is simply because all of humanity stems from Africa, so that is where the most diversity lies. There are hundreds of genetic markers involved in something as comparatively simple as skin color. The genetic markers involved in something as complex as intelligence are likely orders of magnitude more complex. You might be able to extrapolate something from certain sub-groups that branch from very narrow branches of the human diaspora, but you certainly could never, ever come up with something that made any sense to apply to the extremely broad strokes that we use to "group" people here in this melting pot we call the USA.

haihaibye 4y ago
Nobody has ever claimed a 100% genetic basis of difference. The individual heritability of IQ is .5 to .8 for example Sub-Saharan diversity is a real thing, eg Bantu, Nilotic, Pygmy and Bushmen are extremely diverse (African Americans are not Pygny or Bushmen so not as diverse) But if you use cluster analysis on human genomes and ask it to divide humanity into 2 clusters, it divides humans into Sub Saharan Africans and everyone else. The key is selection not just randomness (most variation does little or nothing) you can't say eg "Africa is the most diverse therefore it will have the best adaptations for altitude" (that would be Tibetans, courtesy of interbreeding with Denisovians) The number of variants responsible for skin color is actually extremely small. It's why you can have such large variation between siblings. In contrast yes intelligence is highly polygenic. However, given sufficient sample sizes you can calculate genome wide association scores and work this all out.
- s1artibartfast 4y ago
  I think the more telling test for bias (genetic, social, or otherwise) is to compare groups with long standing US ancestry with recent immigrants of the same background and education. My understanding is that while we attribute much of inequality to bias in treatment, recent immigrants and their decedents vastly outperform comparable individuals with the same skin color. To me, this indicates that much of the differences we observe are due to biases of past treatment, opposed to discriminatory treatment in the present.
  - jjeaff 4y ago
    Comparing modern African immigrants to modern day Black Americans descended from enslaved people is not going to get you a clean comparison by any means. Modern African immigrants are one the most highly educated groups of people in the US. And many of them come having already attained that education due to family money, intelligence, whatever. The poor or even average African immigrants has little chance of making it here. In other words, you are comparing an all star team to the general population. And yes, biases of past treatment is one of the main issues that many are trying to correct with affirmative action-like programs. There doesn't have to be any modern, active racism at all to try and correct the terrible damage done in the past on a systemic basis. In many cases, this past injustice is exactly what systemic racism is referring to.
    - s1artibartfast 4y ago
      To be fair, I did say comparable background, which can include education. There easily is enough immigrants, even poor uneducated ones lacrosse decades to make this comparison. From what I read, poor and average immigrants do great, even African ones. Even more so, the first generation born in the US. My greater point doesn't negate the impact of past treatment. If anything, it's strongly supports it. What I think it adds to the conversation is the idea that the challenge is very different than overly simplistic model of skin color discrimination which most people around usually try to reduce everything to. Miss attribution of the root cause leads to ineffective Solutions. I agree that historic impacts can be scoped into the definition of systemic racism, but that doesn't mean that other tenants of systemic racism are not overstated or incorrect.

vannevar 4y ago

From a policy perspective, it makes more sense to assume that past and present bias---which we know exists---is a more likely explanation than genetic inferiority (for which there is no evidence). The burden of proof is on the racial supremicists to provide support for their position, not on the government.

haihaibye 4y ago
What's your explanation for the over-performance of the Ashkenazi and Chinese vs US whites? (The comment you replied to)
- random78965 4y ago
  Cultural emphasis on educational achievement and hard work, for one.
  - haihaibye 4y ago
    Why does everyone find much stronger genetic effects than parental in adoption studies? “Little intergenerational correlation in education was observed in the absence of genetic similarity between parent and child—that is, among adoptees.” https://gwern.net/docs/genetics/heritable/adoption/2021-ludeke.pdf https://gwern.net/docs/genetics/heritable/adoption/2021-lude... “By examining parent-offspring resemblance in a sample of offspring that are among the oldest of any adoption study of IQ to date, we have effectively tested for the presence of parenting effects that would have persisted for more than a decade after the conclusion of the typical rearing period. No such persistence is found to occur in our unique sample.” https://gwern.net/docs/iq/2021-willoughby.pdf https://gwern.net/docs/iq/2021-willoughby.pdf In an adoptive sample of Korean Americans parental income was unrelated to offspring income. https://gwern.net/docs/genetics/heritable/adoption/2007-sacerdote.pdf https://gwern.net/docs/genetics/heritable/adoption/2007-sace...
    - random78965 4y ago
      I'm not sure, that's not my area of expertise! I think it's pretty well-replicated that IQ is more predicted by genetics than any other factor; however, my understanding is that variation in IQ within an ethnic population is much greater than variation between populations. If a population mean is significantly different from others (which appears to be the case with Ashkenazi Jews and Asians), I'd expect the effect to be primarily environmental, not genetic. I don't know enough about the inheritance of intelligence to be sure of this at all, though.