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You should be able to do that with a card as well. They can’t charge your card more than you authorize. (And if they did a call to the CC company will get it al

You should be able to do that with a card as well. They can’t charge your card more than you authorize. (And if they did a call to the CC company will get it all taken care of).

michaelmrose 4y ago
They can decline to charge payment for anything other than the full figure leaving you with the ability to walk out or pay. If you opt not to pay you are dining and dashing and subject to prosecution the fact that you offered to partially pay notwithstanding. Logically pay the bill then leave a negative review and never eat there again.
- MichaelNolan 4y ago
  > If you opt not to pay you are dining and dashing and subject to prosecution Is that actually a crime? My understanding is that you can leave your contact info, walk out. I’m not aware of any cases where police have gotten involved in a payment dispute. I used to work in a law enforcement adjacent field, and when the topic came up, the cops said it’s a civil dispute, not a crime. Edit - after searching online, there are a few cases of diners being arrested, though it seems the charges are always dropped. Also those cases involved posted notices of the fee before the diners ordered.
- 1000100_1000101 4y ago
  The advertised prices form part of a contract you're agreeing to. The drip fees are un-advertised extra expenses after the contract is signed and completed (you're fed). If you're willing to pay the agreed upon price, and they're unwilling to accept your payment, that should be their problem, not yours. They have violated the contract, added new fees after the fact. They have violated the contract, refusing to accept the agreed upon payment.
  - michaelmrose 4y ago
    This seems like an expensive fight to have wherein the opposing parties lawyers probably already did the due diligence to ensure those fees are legally defensible by virtue of signage. Seems like you would probably be hiring a lawyer with a 3000 retainer to fight an 8 dollar charge.
    - hyperhopper 4y ago
      Get a recording of you asking them to confirm their refusal to accept cash payment for the pre-fee amount. They will either let you do it or you have good enough evidence that the managers not gonna make an issue when you have a recording that will make him look like an asshole in front of a jury and his boss.
    - nulbyte 4y ago
      These places stiff their servers and expect customers to make up the difference. I doubt they care to pay an attorney to tell them what they already know about their unscrupulous practices.
- carlosjobim 4y ago
  You are not right. The crime being committed is fraud and the guilty party is the restaurant. If they refuse payment for the actual payment, that is their problem. Any court in any jurisdiction in the world will side with the customer in a case such as OPs.
  - michaelmrose 4y ago
    Why hasn't anyone court in any jurisdiction found this by now then? Added fees are pernicious and annoying but I'm not aware of them being found to be illegal. The most likely end result is the court finds your lawsuit is frivolous and simply dismisses it then you end up paying the $8 charge if you are unlucky legal fees for bringing a frivolous suit. Instead of relying on your fictional understanding of how the law works in every state of the union the more logical thing would be to either vote with your wallet or work to pass local laws against such fees or hell why not both.
    - hyperhopper 4y ago
      Nobody fights it
    - carlosjobim 4y ago
      >The most likely end result is the court finds your lawsuit is frivolous and simply dismisses it You're completely right, the case will get thrown out. If you remember, in your scenario it is the restaurant suing the customer for not paying the 20% fraudulent fee, it's not the customer suing the restaurant. Trying to add a fee after the price has been agreed and the food consumed is plain fraud. That's why they won't take you to court. If you dispute it while in the restaurant, they will let it go. Because they know the justice system will side with the customer. Imagine for example if Ticket Master would charge extra fees after a concert, preventing you to leave if you do not pay. Not even they would do such a thing.
  - BonoboIO 4y ago
    Dispute the charge with your credit card. Plain simple, evidence is there. Good luck for the restaurant doing this over and over.
- TheCoelacanth 4y ago
  It's not dine and dash if they refuse to accept payment.
  - michaelmrose 4y ago
    Most employee interfaces don't have a way to represent customer paid arbitrary dollars towards their ticket but not all of it. Try this at retail. I'm only going to pay 50c towards that candy bar because that's what I feel like it should cost and ask to swipe your card for 50c. Most systems could represent a payment of less than the cost of the ticket as a partially completed transaction but would be faced with the decision to either complete the ticket or void it returning all funds.
    - carlosjobim 4y ago
      If their system is inadequate that is their own problem, certainly not any problem for the customer. Machines are not the masters of people. >Try this at retail I do this all the time in retail, paying part in cash and part by card. No problem at all, cashiers often ask if I have any cash I'd like to use towards the bill first.
      - michaelmrose 4y ago
        If you don't complete the transactions all funds are refunded including previously processed cards. There is essentially no button for customer decided to only pay part of the transaction no funds will be retained. The agent you are dealing with can no more complete half your transaction than you can complete half an amazon order and expect goods to be sent to you.
        carlosjobim 4y ago
        You've become confused as to the hierarchy. Here is the rule: 1. The human is the master 2. The machine is the slave There is always a way to change an order in a POS system. If there is no button to do that, that is not a concern for the customer.
- rlpb 4y ago
  > If you opt not to pay you are dining and dashing... No. If they refuse to charge your card the agreed amount then they are refusing to take your money and that's no longer your problem. They might well claim otherwise, and you might well end up in a scene, but please don't accept their fraudulent framing, or spread the idea that they are somehow in the right with that framing. If it's prosecution you fear, then consider that they can prosecute you for anything at any time. Why not a 100% fee? A 200% fee? Ten times the agreed amount? At what point will you refuse to pay?
- jen20 4y ago
  How much do you propose one should pay without notice? 5%? 40%? $100?

You should be able to do that with a card as well. They can’t charge your card more than you authorize. (And if they did a call to the CC company will get it all taken care of).

michaelmrose 4y ago

They can decline to charge payment for anything other than the full figure leaving you with the ability to walk out or pay. If you opt not to pay you are dining and dashing and subject to prosecution the fact that you offered to partially pay notwithstanding. Logically pay the bill then leave a negative review and never eat there again.

MichaelNolan 4y ago
> If you opt not to pay you are dining and dashing and subject to prosecution Is that actually a crime? My understanding is that you can leave your contact info, walk out. I’m not aware of any cases where police have gotten involved in a payment dispute. I used to work in a law enforcement adjacent field, and when the topic came up, the cops said it’s a civil dispute, not a crime. Edit - after searching online, there are a few cases of diners being arrested, though it seems the charges are always dropped. Also those cases involved posted notices of the fee before the diners ordered.
1000100_1000101 4y ago
The advertised prices form part of a contract you're agreeing to. The drip fees are un-advertised extra expenses after the contract is signed and completed (you're fed). If you're willing to pay the agreed upon price, and they're unwilling to accept your payment, that should be their problem, not yours. They have violated the contract, added new fees after the fact. They have violated the contract, refusing to accept the agreed upon payment.
- michaelmrose 4y ago
  This seems like an expensive fight to have wherein the opposing parties lawyers probably already did the due diligence to ensure those fees are legally defensible by virtue of signage. Seems like you would probably be hiring a lawyer with a 3000 retainer to fight an 8 dollar charge.
  - hyperhopper 4y ago
    Get a recording of you asking them to confirm their refusal to accept cash payment for the pre-fee amount. They will either let you do it or you have good enough evidence that the managers not gonna make an issue when you have a recording that will make him look like an asshole in front of a jury and his boss.
  - nulbyte 4y ago
    These places stiff their servers and expect customers to make up the difference. I doubt they care to pay an attorney to tell them what they already know about their unscrupulous practices.
carlosjobim 4y ago
You are not right. The crime being committed is fraud and the guilty party is the restaurant. If they refuse payment for the actual payment, that is their problem. Any court in any jurisdiction in the world will side with the customer in a case such as OPs.
- michaelmrose 4y ago
  Why hasn't anyone court in any jurisdiction found this by now then? Added fees are pernicious and annoying but I'm not aware of them being found to be illegal. The most likely end result is the court finds your lawsuit is frivolous and simply dismisses it then you end up paying the $8 charge if you are unlucky legal fees for bringing a frivolous suit. Instead of relying on your fictional understanding of how the law works in every state of the union the more logical thing would be to either vote with your wallet or work to pass local laws against such fees or hell why not both.
  - hyperhopper 4y ago
    Nobody fights it
  - carlosjobim 4y ago
    >The most likely end result is the court finds your lawsuit is frivolous and simply dismisses it You're completely right, the case will get thrown out. If you remember, in your scenario it is the restaurant suing the customer for not paying the 20% fraudulent fee, it's not the customer suing the restaurant. Trying to add a fee after the price has been agreed and the food consumed is plain fraud. That's why they won't take you to court. If you dispute it while in the restaurant, they will let it go. Because they know the justice system will side with the customer. Imagine for example if Ticket Master would charge extra fees after a concert, preventing you to leave if you do not pay. Not even they would do such a thing.
- BonoboIO 4y ago
  Dispute the charge with your credit card. Plain simple, evidence is there. Good luck for the restaurant doing this over and over.
TheCoelacanth 4y ago
It's not dine and dash if they refuse to accept payment.
- michaelmrose 4y ago
  Most employee interfaces don't have a way to represent customer paid arbitrary dollars towards their ticket but not all of it. Try this at retail. I'm only going to pay 50c towards that candy bar because that's what I feel like it should cost and ask to swipe your card for 50c. Most systems could represent a payment of less than the cost of the ticket as a partially completed transaction but would be faced with the decision to either complete the ticket or void it returning all funds.
  - carlosjobim 4y ago
    If their system is inadequate that is their own problem, certainly not any problem for the customer. Machines are not the masters of people. >Try this at retail I do this all the time in retail, paying part in cash and part by card. No problem at all, cashiers often ask if I have any cash I'd like to use towards the bill first.
    - michaelmrose 4y ago
      If you don't complete the transactions all funds are refunded including previously processed cards. There is essentially no button for customer decided to only pay part of the transaction no funds will be retained. The agent you are dealing with can no more complete half your transaction than you can complete half an amazon order and expect goods to be sent to you.
      - carlosjobim 4y ago
        You've become confused as to the hierarchy. Here is the rule: 1. The human is the master 2. The machine is the slave There is always a way to change an order in a POS system. If there is no button to do that, that is not a concern for the customer.
rlpb 4y ago
> If you opt not to pay you are dining and dashing... No. If they refuse to charge your card the agreed amount then they are refusing to take your money and that's no longer your problem. They might well claim otherwise, and you might well end up in a scene, but please don't accept their fraudulent framing, or spread the idea that they are somehow in the right with that framing. If it's prosecution you fear, then consider that they can prosecute you for anything at any time. Why not a 100% fee? A 200% fee? Ten times the agreed amount? At what point will you refuse to pay?
jen20 4y ago
How much do you propose one should pay without notice? 5%? 40%? $100?