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Ideally, moral value would be signaled by market-based price discovery. Economic progress is one of creating markets for more things, not fewer. Markets for som

Ideally, moral value would be signaled by market-based price discovery. Economic progress is one of creating markets for more things, not fewer. Markets for some things but not others reeks of special pleading.

dragonwriter 4y ago
> Economic progress is one of creating markets for more things, not fewer. So, eliminating markets for people was a bad thing?
- kelseyfrog 4y ago
  If I was forced to admit that sometimes markets were bad, then I'd have to re-evaluate our entire economic system - what if healthcare markets, gun markets, even employment markets were up for debate? Under what criteria would one even evaluate those? Moreover, how could we even tell if they were genuinely bad or good, or if the particular cultural context and social indoctrination predisposed me to think they were good through social conditioning? Why, for example, would a market for health care be good, but a market for child-imprisonment be bad? If a market for child-imprisonment were susceptible to bad actors, perverse incentives, and bad outcomes, then it stands to reason the same could be said of all markets. That's a rather large implication, I'm sure we agree on. If humane child imprisonment is valued by the market participants, then that's what the market will provide. If a market doesn't signal that it's important, then it's definitionally not important. That's what price signalling is all about.
- notch656c 4y ago
  Kelseyfrog is trolling and enjoys using straw-man arguments to poke fun at other ideologies. I've debated with them before. Have you ever seen an ancap with pronouns in their profile lol? It's sarcasm.
  - kelseyfrog 4y ago
    I like debating. I use debate to test out theories and ideas all the time. It's a great way to learn what works and what doesn't. You don't have to believe everything you debate. The idea that people have to earnestly debate their own beliefs is a limiting mindset. It seems like what people are trying to say is that market outcomes dictate market success. Eg: bad market outcomes = bad place to hold a market, but no one is flat out saying it. At the same time, we have the idea that markets are "the best thing we have and any limits on markets produce negative outcomes." This is a contradiction and at this point at this place, I don't think debating that topic directly is going to teach me anything. Debating the fringes, however is. It's the same thing as saying "X doesn't work" on StackOverflow and getting people to prove that it does. It's that we're doing it with something non-tech this time.
    - deleted 4y ago
      [deleted]
    - glial 4y ago
      There's a conversation in Harper's this month along these lines: https://harpers.org/archive/2023/02/is-liberalism-worth-saving-francis-fukuyama-cornel-west-deirdre-mccloskey-patrick-deneen/ https://harpers.org/archive/2023/02/is-liberalism-worth-savi... The conversation flits around a bit too quickly for my taste, but some interesting points are made.
nobody9999 4y ago
Yeah. Let's create a legal market for human organs and start with yours. It will be most efficient. I promise!

dragonwriter 4y ago

> Economic progress is one of creating markets for more things, not fewer. So, eliminating markets for people was a bad thing?

kelseyfrog 4y ago
If I was forced to admit that sometimes markets were bad, then I'd have to re-evaluate our entire economic system - what if healthcare markets, gun markets, even employment markets were up for debate? Under what criteria would one even evaluate those? Moreover, how could we even tell if they were genuinely bad or good, or if the particular cultural context and social indoctrination predisposed me to think they were good through social conditioning? Why, for example, would a market for health care be good, but a market for child-imprisonment be bad? If a market for child-imprisonment were susceptible to bad actors, perverse incentives, and bad outcomes, then it stands to reason the same could be said of all markets. That's a rather large implication, I'm sure we agree on. If humane child imprisonment is valued by the market participants, then that's what the market will provide. If a market doesn't signal that it's important, then it's definitionally not important. That's what price signalling is all about.
notch656c 4y ago
Kelseyfrog is trolling and enjoys using straw-man arguments to poke fun at other ideologies. I've debated with them before. Have you ever seen an ancap with pronouns in their profile lol? It's sarcasm.
- kelseyfrog 4y ago
  I like debating. I use debate to test out theories and ideas all the time. It's a great way to learn what works and what doesn't. You don't have to believe everything you debate. The idea that people have to earnestly debate their own beliefs is a limiting mindset. It seems like what people are trying to say is that market outcomes dictate market success. Eg: bad market outcomes = bad place to hold a market, but no one is flat out saying it. At the same time, we have the idea that markets are "the best thing we have and any limits on markets produce negative outcomes." This is a contradiction and at this point at this place, I don't think debating that topic directly is going to teach me anything. Debating the fringes, however is. It's the same thing as saying "X doesn't work" on StackOverflow and getting people to prove that it does. It's that we're doing it with something non-tech this time.
  - deleted 4y ago
    [deleted]
  - glial 4y ago
    There's a conversation in Harper's this month along these lines: https://harpers.org/archive/2023/02/is-liberalism-worth-saving-francis-fukuyama-cornel-west-deirdre-mccloskey-patrick-deneen/ https://harpers.org/archive/2023/02/is-liberalism-worth-savi... The conversation flits around a bit too quickly for my taste, but some interesting points are made.

nobody9999 4y ago

Yeah. Let's create a legal market for human organs and start with yours. It will be most efficient. I promise!