4 ms·

I don't even understand how a washing machine can steal any data worth money. Are they eavesdropping on all network traffic or something?

jacquesm 4y ago
Just monitoring the line voltage and the frequency with which it runs loads and at what temp will tell you the composition of the occupants of the place where it is located. And probably also whether the people there wfh or go to the office.
- nerdponx 4y ago
  But can you differentiate the dishwasher and washing machine this way? Can you measure the actual wash cycles and settings they used? And more importantly, can the appliance manufacturer sell and profit off of that data? The answers are "maybe", "probably not", and "definitely not", the latter being the most important here.
  - jacquesm 4y ago
    Absolutely. I don't know where you get your answers but I've seen systems like this in practice and they are uncannily accurate. See also: smart electricity meters.
robinsonb5 4y ago
You can tell a lot about someone from how often the washing machine runs, and which modes get used - whether they live alone, have a large family - even whether they have pets - all data that, when tied to a user account which contains your name, address, email address, (inside leg measurement, blood group...) is valuable to advertisers.
- throwaway1777 4y ago
  Surely there are easier ways to get that data.
  - jqpabc123 4y ago
    There may be but the easier ways don't put money into the pocket of the appliance vendor.
    - throwaway1777 4y ago
      my point was about who is in the market for that data when it should be available elsewhere.
  - nerdponx 4y ago
    The manufacturer doesn't care about the data, they care about selling it to advertisers. There's no better way to measure someone's actual washing machine usage than actually measuring their washing machine usage. The next-best thing is to buy data on how often the person buys laundry detergent.
    - deafpolygon 4y ago
      Soon a sensor will be added to detect what kind of detergent you use!
- PebblesRox 4y ago
  > inside leg measurement, blood group Now I'm imagining a fancy washing machine that can measure the inseam of your pants and run tests on blood stains to determine blood type.
autoexec 4y ago
A washing machine can probably tell if you have a family, what hours you're home and doing housework, what types of clothes you have, etc. They'll have their machine phone home constantly so they'll have your IP address logged and the SSID of your wireless network and your neighbors which will give them your location. They'll probably have your washer controlled via an app too that will constantly collect data from your cell phone even when you aren't using it. They might actually eavesdrop on your network traffic. LG made a smart TV that crawled your home network collecting data and sending back things like any filenames it found on network shares or on USB drives that were connected (https://arstechnica.com/information-technology/2013/11/lg-smart-tv-snooping-extends-to-home-networks-second-blogger-says/ https://arstechnica.com/information-technology/2013/11/lg-sm...) I wouldn't be surprised if it also let them do things like remotely brick your appliance. Maybe because you used an "unauthorized" brand of soap/fabric softener, or maybe just because your warranty period had ended and they think you should buy another washer. Maybe four years after purchase they decide to switch to a Washing As A Service model and force you to add a credit card which charges you a small fee for every load.
- deafpolygon 4y ago
  Windows 11 "optional" telemetry collects the IP address, hardware address of any networked devices plus any networked drives that it finds. It also scans for bluetooth devices and sends that data back. Why do they need this data? I don't know.
  - autoexec 4y ago
    The same reason everyone wants the most mundane details of our lives and a multi-billion dollar a year industry has sprung up around the buying and selling of that data. Because they know they can use it to their own advantage, always at our expense. Microsoft has decided to use their OS as a data collection and ad pushing platform. The amount of dirt they must have on the average windows user is disturbing enough, but with office they get unprecedented insight into the internals of damn near every company including their own competitors. When my own company gave me a windows 10 machine, it came with Microsoft's keylogger enabled. First thing I did was tell them they should probably update the image they're using on new workstations to disable telemetry or at least make sure that every password and keypress wasn't being collected, but we still leak a ton of data to MS. Company data, employee data, and customer data. It's amazing how every company accepts it.

jacquesm 4y ago

Just monitoring the line voltage and the frequency with which it runs loads and at what temp will tell you the composition of the occupants of the place where it is located. And probably also whether the people there wfh or go to the office.

nerdponx 4y ago
But can you differentiate the dishwasher and washing machine this way? Can you measure the actual wash cycles and settings they used? And more importantly, can the appliance manufacturer sell and profit off of that data? The answers are "maybe", "probably not", and "definitely not", the latter being the most important here.
- jacquesm 4y ago
  Absolutely. I don't know where you get your answers but I've seen systems like this in practice and they are uncannily accurate. See also: smart electricity meters.

robinsonb5 4y ago

You can tell a lot about someone from how often the washing machine runs, and which modes get used - whether they live alone, have a large family - even whether they have pets - all data that, when tied to a user account which contains your name, address, email address, (inside leg measurement, blood group...) is valuable to advertisers.

throwaway1777 4y ago
Surely there are easier ways to get that data.
- jqpabc123 4y ago
  There may be but the easier ways don't put money into the pocket of the appliance vendor.
  - throwaway1777 4y ago
    my point was about who is in the market for that data when it should be available elsewhere.
- nerdponx 4y ago
  The manufacturer doesn't care about the data, they care about selling it to advertisers. There's no better way to measure someone's actual washing machine usage than actually measuring their washing machine usage. The next-best thing is to buy data on how often the person buys laundry detergent.
  - deafpolygon 4y ago
    Soon a sensor will be added to detect what kind of detergent you use!
PebblesRox 4y ago
> inside leg measurement, blood group Now I'm imagining a fancy washing machine that can measure the inseam of your pants and run tests on blood stains to determine blood type.

autoexec 4y ago

A washing machine can probably tell if you have a family, what hours you're home and doing housework, what types of clothes you have, etc. They'll have their machine phone home constantly so they'll have your IP address logged and the SSID of your wireless network and your neighbors which will give them your location. They'll probably have your washer controlled via an app too that will constantly collect data from your cell phone even when you aren't using it. They might actually eavesdrop on your network traffic. LG made a smart TV that crawled your home network collecting data and sending back things like any filenames it found on network shares or on USB drives that were connected (https://arstechnica.com/information-technology/2013/11/lg-smart-tv-snooping-extends-to-home-networks-second-blogger-says/ https://arstechnica.com/information-technology/2013/11/lg-sm...) I wouldn't be surprised if it also let them do things like remotely brick your appliance. Maybe because you used an "unauthorized" brand of soap/fabric softener, or maybe just because your warranty period had ended and they think you should buy another washer. Maybe four years after purchase they decide to switch to a Washing As A Service model and force you to add a credit card which charges you a small fee for every load.

deafpolygon 4y ago
Windows 11 "optional" telemetry collects the IP address, hardware address of any networked devices plus any networked drives that it finds. It also scans for bluetooth devices and sends that data back. Why do they need this data? I don't know.
- autoexec 4y ago
  The same reason everyone wants the most mundane details of our lives and a multi-billion dollar a year industry has sprung up around the buying and selling of that data. Because they know they can use it to their own advantage, always at our expense. Microsoft has decided to use their OS as a data collection and ad pushing platform. The amount of dirt they must have on the average windows user is disturbing enough, but with office they get unprecedented insight into the internals of damn near every company including their own competitors. When my own company gave me a windows 10 machine, it came with Microsoft's keylogger enabled. First thing I did was tell them they should probably update the image they're using on new workstations to disable telemetry or at least make sure that every password and keypress wasn't being collected, but we still leak a ton of data to MS. Company data, employee data, and customer data. It's amazing how every company accepts it.