5 ms·

1. There is too much "Create an account" and "Give us your info" and "agree to these 300 pages of TOS" 2. We want our appliances to work for us rather than for

by mikece 4y ago

1. There is too much "Create an account" and "Give us your info" and "agree to these 300 pages of TOS" 2. We want our appliances to work for us rather than for data brokers Now if my washing machine had a web server built in and I could log into it to see the status of the machine (spin cycle, rinse, finished 22 minutes ago) I would like that. In fact, if the smarts on the washing machine didn't phone home without asking me first I might even join it to my home network. But as long as the terms are that I must accept an electronic leash up my ass from the manufacturer with little say in what info they collect or to whom they give it if I want to see the status of my machine remotely then they can get stuffed.

gofreddygo 4y ago
At first, I got excited about IOT showing up and the possibilities. I could automate everything ! Smart lights, smart TV, smart fridge, smart washing machine, smart toaster, smart coffee machine, smart switch, smart plugs, smart lock, smart speaker, smart photo frame .... I spent months, interconnected everything, it felt awesome. Till it didn't. Few years in, I realized what a lie, a mirage it all has been! I bought them to make my life easier, it did the reverse (with some very rare exceptions). I just kept seeing weird bugs, random forced updates, missed schedules, firmware issues, interoperability issues. Then, I started seeing ads in physical mail, emails, even phone calls for new or renewing subscriptions. Real creepy stuff. All this to monitor usage and sell me more stuff ! I pulled the plug, dialed back on everything smart. I then realized I had a hard time getting my hands on products that get the job done and don't force me to connect it to the internet. I'm now monitoring my router logs for weird activity, locking products down and actively figuring out ways to firewall them. Such a waste!
onlyrealcuzzo 4y ago
3. We want our appliances to work until they break down - not until the company updates the software so they break down faster (or instantly [for our safety of course]) so we need to buy a new appliance.
- mikece 4y ago
  4. We want schematics, details, and parts availability to fix things ourselves (or for our local independent repair person to do it) rather than grovel for a tech who paid the manufacturer for the label of "brand certified" to come overcharge me for a fix that won't really fix the issue completely.
  - toomuchtodo 4y ago
    Surprised this isn’t a YC startup to be honest, what with all the open source companies in recent batches. Give me Bosch, Speedqueen, etc appliance quality with right to repair and I will pay. I want dumb yet sturdy equipment that will last.
    - onlyrealcuzzo 4y ago
      That's not VC. That's just a regular business. Please start it.
    - stagger87 4y ago
      This hypothetical product is not going to come from a YC startup...
      - toomuchtodo 4y ago
        Agreed!
    - fknorangesite 4y ago
      > Surprised this isn’t a YC startup to be honest You have a lot more faith in YC than I do.
    - fourseventy 4y ago
      Need more than that to disrupt a 100 year old home appliance industry.
    - okCompewtr 4y ago
H1Supreme 4y ago
> I could log into it to see the status of the machine (spin cycle, rinse, finished 22 minutes ago) I would like that As long as this monitoring system can completely fail, and the machine still works, I'm okay with it. Ultimately, the more shit like this that gets shoved into appliances, the more the cost climbs. And, If I had to guess, actual functionality (eg. washing my clothes) is the target of cost cutting measures. Which is precisely what I don't want in an appliance.
jacquesm 4y ago
And that nice and handy remote update that either disables a bunch of stuff that you already paid for or that bricks a perfectly good piece of hardware if the company goes out of business. https://us.community.samsung.com/t5/Washers-and-Dryers/Samsung-Bricked-My-Washing-Machine/td-p/2379781 https://us.community.samsung.com/t5/Washers-and-Dryers/Samsu...
amf12 4y ago
Hopefully, more appliances are Matter based in the future and this won't be necessary.
- ravivooda 4y ago
  I was going to ask about the same; Matter or HomeKit would/should solve the problem of Privacy, right?
  - rodgerd 4y ago
    I seriously doubt that Google would have signed on to Matter if it didn't provide an abundance of ways to gossip about you.
    - Larrikin 4y ago
      Google supporting the standard is irrelevant so long as Home Assistant does. More devices in the eco system at the beginning is a plus for the health of the standard, just don't buy one of their listening devices
    - yencabulator 4y ago
      Google might be pretty much okay only capturing the 99.99% of people who don't think about privacy much, and want the convenience of Google Home and centralized data. Giving a slight nod to the 0.01% might even lead to a decrease in bad PR.
ender341341 4y ago
I use a zigbee smart outlet to monitor the power usage (I have a gas dryer so easier to do than something on 220) and use that to notify when the washer/dryer are done. I do something like if power usage goes above x, then wait till it goes below that for at least 3 minutes and notify me then (exact timing may depend on the washer/dryer)
- ARandomerDude 4y ago
  Great idea, thanks for the tip.
- jhot 4y ago
  I do the same with my washer. 100W threshold to know it's running and then has to be below 5W for 3 minutes to be done. ntfy.sh alert is then sent to whoever is home (or just me if nobody is home).
mihaaly 4y ago
A robot vacuum requiring Wifi connection to work with dual HD camera on it and making accurate map of my entire home and proud of having internet access will not only keep me away connecting it to my home Wifi - with devices having sensitive data on - but from buying such device. It happened. I did not find acceptable offline one so I keep vacuuming manually.
- didsomeonesay 4y ago
  Well you're not alone with this view. This is were Valetudo and dustbuilder should be mentioned. With these projects, you can replace the nasty privacy-invasive bits in the vendor's SW stack. There's a buying guide to find a matching rootable robot for your needs: https://valetudo.cloud/pages/general/buying-supported-robots.html https://valetudo.cloud/pages/general/buying-supported-robots... I got a pair of Dreame W10s in the last Black Friday deals and they're a great help. I wish my money wouldn't go towards the vendor crapware that takes extra efforts to get rid of. But i couldn't be happier with the result, having automated the vacuuming and mopping.
  - brnt 4y ago
    Also bought a W10 last BF, worka great without setting up wifi/valetudo.
kentm 4y ago
Appliance makers can't seem to resist trying to push you into an "ecosystem" that they own rather than allow you to use open standards, and its super frustrating. I suspect a lot of their internal dev teams think they're adding value and delivering customer-centric features, but they're actually pretty customer-hostile by trying to trap us. Note to makers of "smart" appliances: if you want my business then support standard Zigbee or ZWave hubs.
- eternityforest 4y ago
  Most of these devices support Google Home, which isn't ideal, but it does allow cross manufacturer compatibility. There's probably just not much demand for open standards because Home is good enough, up until they take the cloud server down. Matter might improve things a bit.
- deafpolygon 4y ago
  > suspect a lot of their internal dev teams think they're adding value They know they're not. Developers aren't stupid.
thrashh 4y ago
I think the bigger issue is that the smart features just aren’t useful They’re all just tech demos… and often buggy ones A valuable feature solves a problem
bambax 4y ago
> Now if my washing machine had a web server built in and I could log into it to see the status of the machine (spin cycle, rinse, finished 22 minutes ago) I would like that. How big is your house? And why do you need to know when the cycle is finished? I absolutely do not want a so-called "smart" appliance and will go out of my way not to buy one. I want something with as few buttons as possible, that promises to last a long time.
- ArchOversight 4y ago
  Not the original poster... but wanted to answer anyway. I have ADHD, my washer sending a push notification to my iOS devices (I have LG ThinQ enabled washer/dryer) means I have an alert in a place where I am already looking for alerts that my washing machine is done and I should go move the clothes into the dryer. Before I enabled push notifications for this, my laundry could sometimes sit in the washer for days, getting all nasty and moldy and needing another cycle to be run just to get them clean before throwing them into the dryer. That is why I need to know that the cycle is finished.
jacknews 4y ago
Exactly, I have a LG washer that has a smart feature. But it works by the machine connecting to an LG server, and then their smartphone app connecting to the LG server, and matching up. Needless to say I have never connected it. Why can't they just run a local webserver or API? I'd use that. Even more if it was a documented API and I could write my own automation for it.

by mikece 4y ago

gofreddygo 4y ago

At first, I got excited about IOT showing up and the possibilities. I could automate everything ! Smart lights, smart TV, smart fridge, smart washing machine, smart toaster, smart coffee machine, smart switch, smart plugs, smart lock, smart speaker, smart photo frame .... I spent months, interconnected everything, it felt awesome. Till it didn't. Few years in, I realized what a lie, a mirage it all has been! I bought them to make my life easier, it did the reverse (with some very rare exceptions). I just kept seeing weird bugs, random forced updates, missed schedules, firmware issues, interoperability issues. Then, I started seeing ads in physical mail, emails, even phone calls for new or renewing subscriptions. Real creepy stuff. All this to monitor usage and sell me more stuff ! I pulled the plug, dialed back on everything smart. I then realized I had a hard time getting my hands on products that get the job done and don't force me to connect it to the internet. I'm now monitoring my router logs for weird activity, locking products down and actively figuring out ways to firewall them. Such a waste!

onlyrealcuzzo 4y ago

3. We want our appliances to work until they break down - not until the company updates the software so they break down faster (or instantly [for our safety of course]) so we need to buy a new appliance.

mikece 4y ago
4. We want schematics, details, and parts availability to fix things ourselves (or for our local independent repair person to do it) rather than grovel for a tech who paid the manufacturer for the label of "brand certified" to come overcharge me for a fix that won't really fix the issue completely.
- toomuchtodo 4y ago
  Surprised this isn’t a YC startup to be honest, what with all the open source companies in recent batches. Give me Bosch, Speedqueen, etc appliance quality with right to repair and I will pay. I want dumb yet sturdy equipment that will last.
  - onlyrealcuzzo 4y ago
    That's not VC. That's just a regular business. Please start it.
  - stagger87 4y ago
    This hypothetical product is not going to come from a YC startup...
    - toomuchtodo 4y ago
      Agreed!
  - fknorangesite 4y ago
    > Surprised this isn’t a YC startup to be honest You have a lot more faith in YC than I do.
  - fourseventy 4y ago
    Need more than that to disrupt a 100 year old home appliance industry.
  - okCompewtr 4y ago

H1Supreme 4y ago

> I could log into it to see the status of the machine (spin cycle, rinse, finished 22 minutes ago) I would like that As long as this monitoring system can completely fail, and the machine still works, I'm okay with it. Ultimately, the more shit like this that gets shoved into appliances, the more the cost climbs. And, If I had to guess, actual functionality (eg. washing my clothes) is the target of cost cutting measures. Which is precisely what I don't want in an appliance.

jacquesm 4y ago

And that nice and handy remote update that either disables a bunch of stuff that you already paid for or that bricks a perfectly good piece of hardware if the company goes out of business. https://us.community.samsung.com/t5/Washers-and-Dryers/Samsung-Bricked-My-Washing-Machine/td-p/2379781 https://us.community.samsung.com/t5/Washers-and-Dryers/Samsu...

amf12 4y ago

Hopefully, more appliances are Matter based in the future and this won't be necessary.

ravivooda 4y ago
I was going to ask about the same; Matter or HomeKit would/should solve the problem of Privacy, right?
- rodgerd 4y ago
  I seriously doubt that Google would have signed on to Matter if it didn't provide an abundance of ways to gossip about you.
  - Larrikin 4y ago
    Google supporting the standard is irrelevant so long as Home Assistant does. More devices in the eco system at the beginning is a plus for the health of the standard, just don't buy one of their listening devices
  - yencabulator 4y ago
    Google might be pretty much okay only capturing the 99.99% of people who don't think about privacy much, and want the convenience of Google Home and centralized data. Giving a slight nod to the 0.01% might even lead to a decrease in bad PR.

ender341341 4y ago

I use a zigbee smart outlet to monitor the power usage (I have a gas dryer so easier to do than something on 220) and use that to notify when the washer/dryer are done. I do something like if power usage goes above x, then wait till it goes below that for at least 3 minutes and notify me then (exact timing may depend on the washer/dryer)

ARandomerDude 4y ago
Great idea, thanks for the tip.
jhot 4y ago
I do the same with my washer. 100W threshold to know it's running and then has to be below 5W for 3 minutes to be done. ntfy.sh alert is then sent to whoever is home (or just me if nobody is home).

mihaaly 4y ago

A robot vacuum requiring Wifi connection to work with dual HD camera on it and making accurate map of my entire home and proud of having internet access will not only keep me away connecting it to my home Wifi - with devices having sensitive data on - but from buying such device. It happened. I did not find acceptable offline one so I keep vacuuming manually.

didsomeonesay 4y ago
Well you're not alone with this view. This is were Valetudo and dustbuilder should be mentioned. With these projects, you can replace the nasty privacy-invasive bits in the vendor's SW stack. There's a buying guide to find a matching rootable robot for your needs: https://valetudo.cloud/pages/general/buying-supported-robots.html https://valetudo.cloud/pages/general/buying-supported-robots... I got a pair of Dreame W10s in the last Black Friday deals and they're a great help. I wish my money wouldn't go towards the vendor crapware that takes extra efforts to get rid of. But i couldn't be happier with the result, having automated the vacuuming and mopping.
- brnt 4y ago
  Also bought a W10 last BF, worka great without setting up wifi/valetudo.

kentm 4y ago

Appliance makers can't seem to resist trying to push you into an "ecosystem" that they own rather than allow you to use open standards, and its super frustrating. I suspect a lot of their internal dev teams think they're adding value and delivering customer-centric features, but they're actually pretty customer-hostile by trying to trap us. Note to makers of "smart" appliances: if you want my business then support standard Zigbee or ZWave hubs.

eternityforest 4y ago
Most of these devices support Google Home, which isn't ideal, but it does allow cross manufacturer compatibility. There's probably just not much demand for open standards because Home is good enough, up until they take the cloud server down. Matter might improve things a bit.
deafpolygon 4y ago
> suspect a lot of their internal dev teams think they're adding value They know they're not. Developers aren't stupid.

thrashh 4y ago

I think the bigger issue is that the smart features just aren’t useful They’re all just tech demos… and often buggy ones A valuable feature solves a problem

bambax 4y ago

> Now if my washing machine had a web server built in and I could log into it to see the status of the machine (spin cycle, rinse, finished 22 minutes ago) I would like that. How big is your house? And why do you need to know when the cycle is finished? I absolutely do not want a so-called "smart" appliance and will go out of my way not to buy one. I want something with as few buttons as possible, that promises to last a long time.

ArchOversight 4y ago
Not the original poster... but wanted to answer anyway. I have ADHD, my washer sending a push notification to my iOS devices (I have LG ThinQ enabled washer/dryer) means I have an alert in a place where I am already looking for alerts that my washing machine is done and I should go move the clothes into the dryer. Before I enabled push notifications for this, my laundry could sometimes sit in the washer for days, getting all nasty and moldy and needing another cycle to be run just to get them clean before throwing them into the dryer. That is why I need to know that the cycle is finished.

jacknews 4y ago

Exactly, I have a LG washer that has a smart feature. But it works by the machine connecting to an LG server, and then their smartphone app connecting to the LG server, and matching up. Needless to say I have never connected it. Why can't they just run a local webserver or API? I'd use that. Even more if it was a documented API and I could write my own automation for it.