5 ms·

Prison creates absolute animals. We shouldn't put people in prison unless they're going to be there for their entire lives. Singapore-style caning is probably m

Prison creates absolute animals. We shouldn't put people in prison unless they're going to be there for their entire lives. Singapore-style caning is probably much better for both the convict and the broader society -- take the incorrigible violent criminals and lock them up for life without parole, and cane the rest.

choward 4y ago
Pretty sure they still receive prison sentences in Singapore in addition to caning.
- sexy_seedbox 4y ago
  And hanging: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Capital_punishment_in_Singapore https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Capital_punishment_in_Singapor...
koolba 4y ago
Starting by bringing back caning in elementary school would pay substantial dividends in about 10 years.
b112 4y ago
Prison creates absolute animals In US prisons I suppose. Most prisons in the world don't have shankings, or gangs, they're designed to rehabilitate, not punish.
- mansion7 4y ago
  Interesting. As an expert on world penal systems and criminal rehabilitation, how do other more civilized countries rehabilitate a woman refusing to wear a hijab, or a guy who refuses to renounce Falun Gong?
  - krainboltgreene 4y ago
    Nothing and therapy, respectively.
SideQuark 4y ago
US has one of the lower recidivism rates [1], so it's hard to support "Prison creates absolute animals". [1] https://worldpopulationreview.com/country-rankings/recidivism-rates-by-country https://worldpopulationreview.com/country-rankings/recidivis...
- autoexec 4y ago
  Strange, I see other sites list the US recidivism rate as one of the highest. > An estimated 68% of released prisoners were arrested within 3 years, 79% within 6 years, and 83% within 9 years. (https://nij.ojp.gov/topics/articles/measuring-recidivism https://nij.ojp.gov/topics/articles/measuring-recidivism) Norway is often claimed to be one of the lowest in the world at ~20% within 5 years.
  - SideQuark 4y ago
    The data above had Norway at 20% at 2 years, so it would be surprising to still be 20% at 5 years. They're also low population, and quite wealthy from the giant oil fields national income. If you broke the 330 million in the US into 5 million sized chunks, you likely find well performing outliers like Norway too. That's the problem when assuming a small thing should scale.
    - autoexec 4y ago
      > The data above had Norway at 20% at 2 years, so it would be surprising to still be 20% at 5 years. This article puts it at 25% (https://www.bbc.com/news/stories-48885846 https://www.bbc.com/news/stories-48885846) which admittedly isn't 20, but isn't far off. Wikipedia has it at 20% after 5 years using 2016 data, but I haven't checked their sources on that (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Incarceration_in_Norway https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Incarceration_in_Norway)
      - SideQuark 4y ago
        The article is a quote from someone talking offhand who is not a researcher. The wiki claim has three sources listed, none of which state the claim. The first claims 20%, no timeframe (so may well be the same 2 year value stated lots of places), the second sources the 20% in 2 years and a report (which looks to be a decent study, but does not have any claim of 25% at 5 years), and the third again has the 20% at 2 years with a linked report (the report also has that data). Not one is a very good source, and if the person speaking for an interview were right, you'd think that data would appear all the times the 20% at 2 appears. Given that, and that the data I cited was from a careful study [1] including lots of research from many countries (including the 20% at 2 years results from Norway), I tend to think the 25% is more or less made up wishful thinking. If it were defensible, it would be cited in other studies that aggregate all this data. When you find something online, try to determine it's original source. Someone simply saying something is not generally true unless it's from a reputable place that actually measured it. [1] https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC6743246/pdf/wellcomeopenres-4-17992.pdf https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC6743246/pdf/wel...
blululu 4y ago
This policy is a bit outside of the Overton window, but caning really does seem more humane and effective than the nightmare of American prisons (I would take 3 strokes from a cane (will scar and you can't sit down for a few weeks) over 6 months in prison). It's not just the crowded brutality that we subject people to in prison but the painful fact that once you are out you are ruined. Caning is quick and convincing. The punishment is administered and the convict can get on with their life and keep their job, their house and their family. From a conditioning standpoint I would also suspect that the severe bout of physical pain is a more effective tool than a few years of psychological torture.
krainboltgreene 4y ago
This is such an insane comment even for HN. Is no one really going to point out savage an idea this is for handling prisons? There are countries that have incredibly low recid rates without deciding to black hole someone for their life or committing violence against them.
S3rM5Y5 4y ago
Caining is plain torture and outlawed by United Nations Convention Against Torture

choward 4y ago

Pretty sure they still receive prison sentences in Singapore in addition to caning.

sexy_seedbox 4y ago
And hanging: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Capital_punishment_in_Singapore https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Capital_punishment_in_Singapor...

koolba 4y ago

Starting by bringing back caning in elementary school would pay substantial dividends in about 10 years.

b112 4y ago

Prison creates absolute animals In US prisons I suppose. Most prisons in the world don't have shankings, or gangs, they're designed to rehabilitate, not punish.

mansion7 4y ago
Interesting. As an expert on world penal systems and criminal rehabilitation, how do other more civilized countries rehabilitate a woman refusing to wear a hijab, or a guy who refuses to renounce Falun Gong?
- krainboltgreene 4y ago
  Nothing and therapy, respectively.

SideQuark 4y ago

US has one of the lower recidivism rates [1], so it's hard to support "Prison creates absolute animals". [1] https://worldpopulationreview.com/country-rankings/recidivism-rates-by-country https://worldpopulationreview.com/country-rankings/recidivis...

autoexec 4y ago
Strange, I see other sites list the US recidivism rate as one of the highest. > An estimated 68% of released prisoners were arrested within 3 years, 79% within 6 years, and 83% within 9 years. (https://nij.ojp.gov/topics/articles/measuring-recidivism https://nij.ojp.gov/topics/articles/measuring-recidivism) Norway is often claimed to be one of the lowest in the world at ~20% within 5 years.
- SideQuark 4y ago
  The data above had Norway at 20% at 2 years, so it would be surprising to still be 20% at 5 years. They're also low population, and quite wealthy from the giant oil fields national income. If you broke the 330 million in the US into 5 million sized chunks, you likely find well performing outliers like Norway too. That's the problem when assuming a small thing should scale.
  - autoexec 4y ago
    > The data above had Norway at 20% at 2 years, so it would be surprising to still be 20% at 5 years. This article puts it at 25% (https://www.bbc.com/news/stories-48885846 https://www.bbc.com/news/stories-48885846) which admittedly isn't 20, but isn't far off. Wikipedia has it at 20% after 5 years using 2016 data, but I haven't checked their sources on that (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Incarceration_in_Norway https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Incarceration_in_Norway)
    - SideQuark 4y ago
      The article is a quote from someone talking offhand who is not a researcher. The wiki claim has three sources listed, none of which state the claim. The first claims 20%, no timeframe (so may well be the same 2 year value stated lots of places), the second sources the 20% in 2 years and a report (which looks to be a decent study, but does not have any claim of 25% at 5 years), and the third again has the 20% at 2 years with a linked report (the report also has that data). Not one is a very good source, and if the person speaking for an interview were right, you'd think that data would appear all the times the 20% at 2 appears. Given that, and that the data I cited was from a careful study [1] including lots of research from many countries (including the 20% at 2 years results from Norway), I tend to think the 25% is more or less made up wishful thinking. If it were defensible, it would be cited in other studies that aggregate all this data. When you find something online, try to determine it's original source. Someone simply saying something is not generally true unless it's from a reputable place that actually measured it. [1] https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC6743246/pdf/wellcomeopenres-4-17992.pdf https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC6743246/pdf/wel...

blululu 4y ago

This policy is a bit outside of the Overton window, but caning really does seem more humane and effective than the nightmare of American prisons (I would take 3 strokes from a cane (will scar and you can't sit down for a few weeks) over 6 months in prison). It's not just the crowded brutality that we subject people to in prison but the painful fact that once you are out you are ruined. Caning is quick and convincing. The punishment is administered and the convict can get on with their life and keep their job, their house and their family. From a conditioning standpoint I would also suspect that the severe bout of physical pain is a more effective tool than a few years of psychological torture.

krainboltgreene 4y ago

This is such an insane comment even for HN. Is no one really going to point out savage an idea this is for handling prisons? There are countries that have incredibly low recid rates without deciding to black hole someone for their life or committing violence against them.

S3rM5Y5 4y ago

Caining is plain torture and outlawed by United Nations Convention Against Torture