4 ms·

Specifically, the concept I'm referring to is Predestination[0], or the more extreme version 'Double predestination', wherein God pre-ordained who the Good peop

by mabbo 4y ago

Specifically, the concept I'm referring to is Predestination[0], or the more extreme version 'Double predestination', wherein God pre-ordained who the Good people are and who the Bad people are, and you know you're the Good people because bad things aren't happening to you, and you know that that person must be a Bad person because bad things happen to them. If you're born to a wealthy privileged life, this belief says that you deserve it because you're one of God's chosen- that's why life is so good. And it's a good thing that all those bad things happen to other people because they are bad people. God didn't choose them. This is an extreme view, but the seeds of it are everywhere in our society. Just the term "bad guys" is used to imply a generic evil that we need to stop. Meanwhile real life is far more nuanced (with most true sociopaths actually doing very well in finance and politics). [0]https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Predestination https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Predestination

KMag 4y ago
Again, I'm not a theologian, but this sounds like some mixture of predestination and prosperity gospel, not merely predestination. Most of Jesus's most influential early followers were hunted down and tortured by the Roman authorities, which wouldn't seem to jive with the proposed criteria.
- plorg 4y ago
  This reads like you are suggesting that Calvinism is the same as early Christianity. There was no single organized Christian belief to speak of, and very likely what organization there was looked nothing like the church of 16th century Geneva let alone that of 18th to 21st century America.
  - KMag 4y ago
    I'm saying if the way to know that you're predestined to be saved is that bad things aren't happening to you, that doesn't square with Jesus, Peter, and Paul, and many other early leaders having been tortured and killed by the Romans. Presumably, the Calvinists believed that Peter, Paul, and others were predestined to be saved, and that Jesus was on the right side of history. This is the first I've heard that John Calvin preached that bad things don't happen to people who are predestined for salvation.
claar 4y ago
What you're describing is more commonly known as the "Prosperity Gospel" - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prosperity_theology https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prosperity_theology - which is a niche theology that claims believers will experience "health and wealth" on earth. Predestination is a much more mainstream Christian doctrine that has nothing to do with "good people" vs "bad people", or even "good actions" vs "sinful actions". Predestination means some people are "destined" to salvation and others are not. Predestination is a challenging theology that has to balance God being all knowing (omniscient) and free will.

by mabbo 4y ago

KMag 4y ago

Again, I'm not a theologian, but this sounds like some mixture of predestination and prosperity gospel, not merely predestination. Most of Jesus's most influential early followers were hunted down and tortured by the Roman authorities, which wouldn't seem to jive with the proposed criteria.

plorg 4y ago
This reads like you are suggesting that Calvinism is the same as early Christianity. There was no single organized Christian belief to speak of, and very likely what organization there was looked nothing like the church of 16th century Geneva let alone that of 18th to 21st century America.
- KMag 4y ago
  I'm saying if the way to know that you're predestined to be saved is that bad things aren't happening to you, that doesn't square with Jesus, Peter, and Paul, and many other early leaders having been tortured and killed by the Romans. Presumably, the Calvinists believed that Peter, Paul, and others were predestined to be saved, and that Jesus was on the right side of history. This is the first I've heard that John Calvin preached that bad things don't happen to people who are predestined for salvation.

claar 4y ago

What you're describing is more commonly known as the "Prosperity Gospel" - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prosperity_theology https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prosperity_theology - which is a niche theology that claims believers will experience "health and wealth" on earth. Predestination is a much more mainstream Christian doctrine that has nothing to do with "good people" vs "bad people", or even "good actions" vs "sinful actions". Predestination means some people are "destined" to salvation and others are not. Predestination is a challenging theology that has to balance God being all knowing (omniscient) and free will.