7 ms·

I fully agree he earned punishment and it was a serious crime. (he says the gun was never loaded but that's neither here nor there). My question is the scope an

I fully agree he earned punishment and it was a serious crime. (he says the gun was never loaded but that's neither here nor there). My question is the scope and breadth of the punishment and whether the system is about restitution and rehabilitation or pure punitive action. How do people come out after 10+ years having received no training, support or rehabilitation and step into a completely changed society from when they went in. Luckily, my brother in law has us to support him. Many don't have that option. Is 12 years being enslaved for $1.25 fitting with another 3 on probation and in halfway houses? I don't believe it is especially when watching white collar folks steal millions, do infinitely more damage, and be released in 1/3 the time to pick up where they left off. Ultimately, being forced into slave labor and having to pay hundreds per a month to talk to family despite research showing it's one of the best ways to drive good behavior and rehabilitation in prisoners, is cruel and unusual punishment even if the crime committed means the person is never getting out. Even if we agree on the length of sentence, for someone who did work the entirety of their 12 year sentence, in roles that would have paid $50-70K a year to emerge still owing restitution on a paltry debt of less than a new car, is a travesty.

D13Fd 4y ago
> How do people come out after 10+ years having received no training, support or rehabilitation and step into a completely changed society from when they went in. Completely agreed. And it's not just that -- ex-prisoners also come out without any social network other than what they may have gained among prisoners, and they face extreme social stigma that makes finding work difficult even if they had the skills and connections.
- jeffwask 4y ago
  One positive has been that he didn't have any issues getting work. He had a factory job within a few days and has already been offered potential advancement to a salaried role. I wouldn't be surprised if some of that stemmed from white middle class privilege and the fact that it was a impulsive action (potentially related to mental illness) on his part rather than a lifetime of gang affiliations that led to his crimes. He has no visible markers of incarceration and easily blends into any crowd of middle aged white guys.
notch656c 4y ago
In a politer society with more reasonable laws using a gun to take someone's money would have exactly one outcome: a 9mm hole in that robber's head. Anything beyond that is charity.
- thebooktocome 4y ago
  “Many that live deserve death. And some that die deserve life. Can you give it to them? Then do not be too eager to deal out death in judgement.”
  - notch656c 4y ago
    Someone tried to rob me at gunpoint many years ago. Pointed a gun to my head when I got a flat tire innocently trying to bike home from a bad part of town. Why was I in a bad part of town? Working in a hospital with the people helping the people in a bad part of town. I didn't try to kill them, even though I managed to fight the upper hand off of them. When the scuffle ended all I said was "don't point things at my head." Choose to believe me or not. Don't make presumptions about eagerness.
    - thebooktocome 4y ago
      I’m supposed to take comfort in the fact that you’re more violent in hypothetical situations? The death penalty will always be executed with a certain false positive rate. Willing it as a form of punishment necessarily entails willing the death of innocent people, who crucially can’t be brought back in the event that the state realizes it was mistaken.
      - notch656c 4y ago
        You know the process for executing someone is very long, expensive road. Eager is the worst possible description of the death penalty. There are plenty of criticisms for the death penalty but now you're changing the goalposts as you realize your description written in a science fiction feel good reality was a bad fit.
prepend 4y ago
I don’t think the prison system is about rehabilitation. I think it’s based on the principal of protecting the population from people likely to commit crimes. P who commit crimes are much more likely than the general population to commit a crime, so the more years they are behind bars, the less chance they commit crimes. The slave labor is punishment, and I believe the only form of slavery allowed under the US constitution. I think the prison could pay nothing but they choose practically nothing. I agree on reforming exploitative services like $5/minute phone calls. I don’t think prisoners should be abused financially. I wish I could vote for candidates who supported this kind of reform. In elections near me, this isn’t even an issue where candidates differentiate. There were a few candidates that were running for reform but they were more along the lines of not prosecuting certain misdemeanors. I think the whit collar crime being punished less than violent crime kind of makes sense. I’d rather someone steal $1M than injure someone. It’s pretty mercenary to say that someone stealing $5M without violence is worse than someone stealing $35k with violence. I also don’t think prison sentences have clear relationships for comparison. Is your brothers crime worse than raping 5 people? He would have received less jail time. Is that right? I’m not sure.

D13Fd 4y ago

> How do people come out after 10+ years having received no training, support or rehabilitation and step into a completely changed society from when they went in. Completely agreed. And it's not just that -- ex-prisoners also come out without any social network other than what they may have gained among prisoners, and they face extreme social stigma that makes finding work difficult even if they had the skills and connections.

jeffwask 4y ago
One positive has been that he didn't have any issues getting work. He had a factory job within a few days and has already been offered potential advancement to a salaried role. I wouldn't be surprised if some of that stemmed from white middle class privilege and the fact that it was a impulsive action (potentially related to mental illness) on his part rather than a lifetime of gang affiliations that led to his crimes. He has no visible markers of incarceration and easily blends into any crowd of middle aged white guys.

notch656c 4y ago

In a politer society with more reasonable laws using a gun to take someone's money would have exactly one outcome: a 9mm hole in that robber's head. Anything beyond that is charity.

thebooktocome 4y ago
“Many that live deserve death. And some that die deserve life. Can you give it to them? Then do not be too eager to deal out death in judgement.”
- notch656c 4y ago
  Someone tried to rob me at gunpoint many years ago. Pointed a gun to my head when I got a flat tire innocently trying to bike home from a bad part of town. Why was I in a bad part of town? Working in a hospital with the people helping the people in a bad part of town. I didn't try to kill them, even though I managed to fight the upper hand off of them. When the scuffle ended all I said was "don't point things at my head." Choose to believe me or not. Don't make presumptions about eagerness.
  - thebooktocome 4y ago
    I’m supposed to take comfort in the fact that you’re more violent in hypothetical situations? The death penalty will always be executed with a certain false positive rate. Willing it as a form of punishment necessarily entails willing the death of innocent people, who crucially can’t be brought back in the event that the state realizes it was mistaken.
    - notch656c 4y ago
      You know the process for executing someone is very long, expensive road. Eager is the worst possible description of the death penalty. There are plenty of criticisms for the death penalty but now you're changing the goalposts as you realize your description written in a science fiction feel good reality was a bad fit.

prepend 4y ago

I don’t think the prison system is about rehabilitation. I think it’s based on the principal of protecting the population from people likely to commit crimes. P who commit crimes are much more likely than the general population to commit a crime, so the more years they are behind bars, the less chance they commit crimes. The slave labor is punishment, and I believe the only form of slavery allowed under the US constitution. I think the prison could pay nothing but they choose practically nothing. I agree on reforming exploitative services like $5/minute phone calls. I don’t think prisoners should be abused financially. I wish I could vote for candidates who supported this kind of reform. In elections near me, this isn’t even an issue where candidates differentiate. There were a few candidates that were running for reform but they were more along the lines of not prosecuting certain misdemeanors. I think the whit collar crime being punished less than violent crime kind of makes sense. I’d rather someone steal $1M than injure someone. It’s pretty mercenary to say that someone stealing $5M without violence is worse than someone stealing $35k with violence. I also don’t think prison sentences have clear relationships for comparison. Is your brothers crime worse than raping 5 people? He would have received less jail time. Is that right? I’m not sure.