6 ms·

From your own article : "Due to a law dating from 1872 at the start of the Third Republic, France has prohibited the collection of data on a citizens race, eth

by bsaul 4y ago

From your own article : "Due to a law dating from 1872 at the start of the Third Republic, France has prohibited the collection of data on a citizens race, ethnicity or their beliefs such as religion through national censuses,[47][48] however estimates have been made of the ethnic and racial demography of the country in the present" We're talking estimation as it is indeed illegal, no matter how crazy it may sound like. Estimation is highly dependant on who's doing the estimation, and for what purpose, and as you can see in the article itself, the topic is highly controversial among specialist. Now, if you were living in france for the past 40 years, and had regularely travelled across the country, you would see that in that particular case, the situation is very obvious, and the only circle left still debating the issue is demographic specialists. Politicians and media used to deny the issue and flagged anyone mentioning it as racist, but things have recently changed and we finally start talking about it like grown ups.

wikfwikf 4y ago
I have lived and travelled in France for around 40 years and I don't at all recognize what you are describing. Your claims appear to be based on suggesting that you (and, in a laughable falsehood, the wide range of opinion in French society) knows for a fact that this situation exists, but if anyone does not agree with you, that is merely their opinion, since it is impossible to measure.
- bsaul 4y ago
  may i ask where you have lived and travelled in france ? Have you ever been to any suburb, not just in Paris ( which already has some suburbs with close to 99% non-french inhabitants) but in pretty much any average sized city in the country ? based on your saying I can only assume you only lived in the central part of paris, and went on holidays in the west coast such as bordeaux or brest. Because all the rest of the country is pretty much in transition.
  - wikfwikf 4y ago
    What do you mean by "non-french"?
    - bsaul 4y ago
      The same i would mean if i said "non-japanese ", only applied to france.
      - wikfwikf 4y ago
        I understand your reluctance to answer a straightforward question: you know exactly what you are, and yet you are ashamed to admit to it. This is not the political culture of Vercingetorix, nor of Charles de Gaulle ;)
        bsaul 4y ago
        You'd be surprised. Since we seem to have moved to ad-hominem argumentation : I think your categories and your political reflexes prevent you from thinking straight. Everybody in the world would have a broad understanding of what "french" means (or "japanese", "americans", "italian", etc). For some reason you pretend to ignore there are some cultural norms that are associated to a nation ("cultural" in the broadest sense, which includes the way you look). I believe because this fact scares you or have been associated to a taboo. Those taboos prevent you from addressing questions, and not addressing the issues don't make them magically disappear. Worst, you risk leaving those questions to people that have a political agenda.
        wikfwikf 4y ago
        You seem to be the one subject to taboos. You don't want to say what you mean by 'French' or 'non-French'. I am perfectly capable of understanding and discussing what can be meant by 'Frenchness', and what I mean by it.
        bsaul 4y ago
        I've already had this conversation many times with people arguing against the obvious situation, and it inevitably leads to absurd conclusions that defy the immediate cognitive conclusions and intuition of anyone looking at a given city landscape (you could tell just by looking at a picture if a city looks european, african or asian, for example). However this is most of the time a total waste of time, because the reason the person is arguing against the obvious is not because of intelligent caution, but rather out of scare. So sorry if i'm not going this route with you. If you're sincerely curious i suggest you go on a bike ride in Argenteuil on a friday.

by bsaul 4y ago

wikfwikf 4y ago

I have lived and travelled in France for around 40 years and I don't at all recognize what you are describing. Your claims appear to be based on suggesting that you (and, in a laughable falsehood, the wide range of opinion in French society) knows for a fact that this situation exists, but if anyone does not agree with you, that is merely their opinion, since it is impossible to measure.

bsaul 4y ago
may i ask where you have lived and travelled in france ? Have you ever been to any suburb, not just in Paris ( which already has some suburbs with close to 99% non-french inhabitants) but in pretty much any average sized city in the country ? based on your saying I can only assume you only lived in the central part of paris, and went on holidays in the west coast such as bordeaux or brest. Because all the rest of the country is pretty much in transition.
- wikfwikf 4y ago
  What do you mean by "non-french"?
  - bsaul 4y ago
    The same i would mean if i said "non-japanese ", only applied to france.
    - wikfwikf 4y ago
      I understand your reluctance to answer a straightforward question: you know exactly what you are, and yet you are ashamed to admit to it. This is not the political culture of Vercingetorix, nor of Charles de Gaulle ;)
      - bsaul 4y ago
        You'd be surprised. Since we seem to have moved to ad-hominem argumentation : I think your categories and your political reflexes prevent you from thinking straight. Everybody in the world would have a broad understanding of what "french" means (or "japanese", "americans", "italian", etc). For some reason you pretend to ignore there are some cultural norms that are associated to a nation ("cultural" in the broadest sense, which includes the way you look). I believe because this fact scares you or have been associated to a taboo. Those taboos prevent you from addressing questions, and not addressing the issues don't make them magically disappear. Worst, you risk leaving those questions to people that have a political agenda.
        wikfwikf 4y ago
        You seem to be the one subject to taboos. You don't want to say what you mean by 'French' or 'non-French'. I am perfectly capable of understanding and discussing what can be meant by 'Frenchness', and what I mean by it.
        bsaul 4y ago
        I've already had this conversation many times with people arguing against the obvious situation, and it inevitably leads to absurd conclusions that defy the immediate cognitive conclusions and intuition of anyone looking at a given city landscape (you could tell just by looking at a picture if a city looks european, african or asian, for example). However this is most of the time a total waste of time, because the reason the person is arguing against the obvious is not because of intelligent caution, but rather out of scare. So sorry if i'm not going this route with you. If you're sincerely curious i suggest you go on a bike ride in Argenteuil on a friday.