5 ms·

Going a step further, we can reduce costs by funding social services that help prevent people from ending up in prison in the first place. I agree with your ass

Going a step further, we can reduce costs by funding social services that help prevent people from ending up in prison in the first place. I agree with your assessment of our Calvinist thinking.

_trampeltier 4y ago
In Germany are about 1/3 people in prison because they used a train or bus without ticket. If you can't pay you will end up in prison. Imagine how much money this does cost.
- rahimnathwani 4y ago
  Is this 1/3 of the current prison population, or is it 1/3 of prison sentences handout in a certain period? I could believe the latter. But I assume that sentences for fare evasion are shorter than for other types of theft, or more serious things like murder?
  - _trampeltier 4y ago
    Sadly population
    - bryanrasmussen 4y ago
      https://www.prisonstudies.org/country/germany https://www.prisonstudies.org/country/germany
    - aedocw 4y ago
      This is wildly inaccurate. The population of Germany is about 84m. The total prison population in Germany is 56557. [1] What are you talking about? [1]: https://www.prisonstudies.org/country/germany https://www.prisonstudies.org/country/germany
      - lcnPylGDnU4H9OF 4y ago
        Not OP but I believe they're talking about the total prison population and not the total population. They're saying that roughly 19,000 people (roughly 1/3 of 56,557) are in prison in Germany due to the inability to pay a fine that was given to them for riding on a train or bus without a ticket.
    - nicolas_t 4y ago
      I'd want to see a citation on that, only thing I could find so far is this quote "Peter Biesenbach, justice minister in Germany's most populous state North Rhine-Westphalia, said that over one-in-ten verdicts handed down in his state dealt with fare-dodgers." I can't imagine that 1 in ten verdicts for fare dodging would result in one third of the prison population being fare dodgers.
- lcnPylGDnU4H9OF 4y ago
  > In Germany are about 1/3 people in prison because they used a train or bus without ticket. I think this could be read two ways: > In Germany, 1/3 of the total population is in prison because they used a train or bus without a ticket. > In Germany, 1/3 of the total prison population is there because they used a train or bus without a ticket. I suspect you mean the second, just noting that it could be misunderstood. (Please correct me if I'm mistaken!)
  - deleted 4y ago
    [deleted]
  - dns_snek 4y ago
    It's ambiguous but first interpretation can be ruled out immediately because it can't possibly be true.
- VMG 4y ago
  This seems like a made up number. This article here states that it is at most 10% of all people even in that category of crime in Bavaria https://netzpolitik.org/2022/datenluecke-wie-viele-menschen-sitzen-wegen-fahren-ohne-ticket-im-gefaengnis/ https://netzpolitik.org/2022/datenluecke-wie-viele-menschen-... The category being "Ersatzfreiheitsstrafe" (imprisonment for failure to pay a fine) Do you have a source for your claim?
  - notch656c 4y ago
    Bavaria is the second most well off state so it seems a little unreasonable to assume the average numbers must be near that. These are the kind of crimes disproportionately concerning the poor.
  - dymk 4y ago
    If your numbers are true, and 10% of the prison population consists of people who didn't pay their bus fare, that is egregious
    - VMG 4y ago
      The 10% are in the category of "Ersatzfreiheitsstrafe" which are is "imprisonment for failure to pay a fine" The article is about the lack of more fine-grained data in that category
    - candiodari 4y ago
      You don't get it. The fines are HUGE and the prison sentences really short. So what do you choose? Pay x000 euro? Or go to prison for 1 day, a week at most? There are a substantial number of people picking the second option. Hell, people joke it's about the experience. (Also this is in fact mostly about speeding tickets, not public transport fares)
  - lancebeet 4y ago
    I was also curious about this statement. According to wikipedia, one third of the Plötzensee Prison inmates are there due to fare evasion. Or rather, they were when the articles that wikipedia cites were written. Of course, being a juvenile prison in Berlin, it might have the highest rate of fare evader inmates of any prison in the country (which would explain why the articles write about that prison specifically). https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Plötzensee_Prison https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Plötzensee_Prison https://taz.de/135-Schwarzfahrer-hinter-Gittern/!5134051/ https://taz.de/135-Schwarzfahrer-hinter-Gittern/!5134051/ https://www.tagesspiegel.de/berlin/jeder-dritte-in-plotzensee-sitzt-wegen-schwarzfahrens-8598460.html https://www.tagesspiegel.de/berlin/jeder-dritte-in-plotzense...
- bionade24 4y ago
  I am German and support the degradation of this "crime" to a delict, but even if 1/3 of the emprisoned is there bc of riding without a ticket, which I can hardly believe without a source, you leave out a very important aspect. Most if not all of those aren't emprisoned because they were caught 3 times without a ticket, but because they were on probation when they were caught. Most of those got probation immedeately in court. The law was created in the 1930s by the Nazi government because people "hacked" the new ticket machines, which weren't as secure as today. This wasn't an issue before when selling tickets was done by humans. Sadly western Germany always has been too conservative to change it, the reunification would have been a good chance to overthink every law that originated from the 3rd Reich.
- AvocadoPanic 4y ago
  I'd rather ride the U-Bahn in Munich than the subway in NYC.
  - wikfwikf 4y ago
    Yes, and I'd rather go to prison in Munich than to Rikers Island.
notch656c 4y ago
It will make more sense once you realize the judicial system, cops, prisons etc demand their tribute and if less people are breaking the current laws more will have to be invented or prison sentences made longer. Government apparatuses don't shrink in size. This is why the war on drugs started after prohibition, Henry Anslinger had to go after the evil marijuana. If people stop committing crimes we'll just have to invent more.
JamesBarney 4y ago
Do we have any silver bullets? My understanding is most social services show very small effects once replicated.
- TaylorAlexander 4y ago
  I think this understanding is incorrect. My understanding is that housing services, mental health services, medical services, transportation infrastructure, and related things like maternity and paternity leave, good labor rights, good pay and fair working conditions all lead to a reduction in low level crime and homelessness. There is no need for a single silver bullet if we have a collection of policies that work. To just pick one issue here is a nice article about housing: https://charterforcompassion.org/shareable-community-ideas/public-housing-works-lessons-from-vienna-and-singapore https://charterforcompassion.org/shareable-community-ideas/p...
  - JamesBarney 4y ago
    The fact that some places with affordable housing have much lower crime rates is incredibly far from a replicated RCT (or RCT like data).
    - TaylorAlexander 4y ago
      This is true, but I think RCT-like conditions are hard to create in the social sciences. This does not mean we are unable to make informed policy choices based on the available data.
      - JamesBarney 4y ago
        For interventions they're not that hard, and 99% of correlations that suggest interventions fail to find an effect when they try and RCT. While it's true it's evidence, it is very very very weak evidence.
        TaylorAlexander 4y ago

Going a step further, we can reduce costs by funding social services that help prevent people from ending up in prison in the first place. I agree with your assessment of our Calvinist thinking.

_trampeltier 4y ago

In Germany are about 1/3 people in prison because they used a train or bus without ticket. If you can't pay you will end up in prison. Imagine how much money this does cost.

rahimnathwani 4y ago
Is this 1/3 of the current prison population, or is it 1/3 of prison sentences handout in a certain period? I could believe the latter. But I assume that sentences for fare evasion are shorter than for other types of theft, or more serious things like murder?
- _trampeltier 4y ago
  Sadly population
  - bryanrasmussen 4y ago
    https://www.prisonstudies.org/country/germany https://www.prisonstudies.org/country/germany
  - aedocw 4y ago
    This is wildly inaccurate. The population of Germany is about 84m. The total prison population in Germany is 56557. [1] What are you talking about? [1]: https://www.prisonstudies.org/country/germany https://www.prisonstudies.org/country/germany
    - lcnPylGDnU4H9OF 4y ago
      Not OP but I believe they're talking about the total prison population and not the total population. They're saying that roughly 19,000 people (roughly 1/3 of 56,557) are in prison in Germany due to the inability to pay a fine that was given to them for riding on a train or bus without a ticket.
  - nicolas_t 4y ago
    I'd want to see a citation on that, only thing I could find so far is this quote "Peter Biesenbach, justice minister in Germany's most populous state North Rhine-Westphalia, said that over one-in-ten verdicts handed down in his state dealt with fare-dodgers." I can't imagine that 1 in ten verdicts for fare dodging would result in one third of the prison population being fare dodgers.
lcnPylGDnU4H9OF 4y ago
> In Germany are about 1/3 people in prison because they used a train or bus without ticket. I think this could be read two ways: > In Germany, 1/3 of the total population is in prison because they used a train or bus without a ticket. > In Germany, 1/3 of the total prison population is there because they used a train or bus without a ticket. I suspect you mean the second, just noting that it could be misunderstood. (Please correct me if I'm mistaken!)
- deleted 4y ago
  [deleted]
- dns_snek 4y ago
  It's ambiguous but first interpretation can be ruled out immediately because it can't possibly be true.
VMG 4y ago
This seems like a made up number. This article here states that it is at most 10% of all people even in that category of crime in Bavaria https://netzpolitik.org/2022/datenluecke-wie-viele-menschen-sitzen-wegen-fahren-ohne-ticket-im-gefaengnis/ https://netzpolitik.org/2022/datenluecke-wie-viele-menschen-... The category being "Ersatzfreiheitsstrafe" (imprisonment for failure to pay a fine) Do you have a source for your claim?
- notch656c 4y ago
  Bavaria is the second most well off state so it seems a little unreasonable to assume the average numbers must be near that. These are the kind of crimes disproportionately concerning the poor.
- dymk 4y ago
  If your numbers are true, and 10% of the prison population consists of people who didn't pay their bus fare, that is egregious
  - VMG 4y ago
    The 10% are in the category of "Ersatzfreiheitsstrafe" which are is "imprisonment for failure to pay a fine" The article is about the lack of more fine-grained data in that category
  - candiodari 4y ago
    You don't get it. The fines are HUGE and the prison sentences really short. So what do you choose? Pay x000 euro? Or go to prison for 1 day, a week at most? There are a substantial number of people picking the second option. Hell, people joke it's about the experience. (Also this is in fact mostly about speeding tickets, not public transport fares)
- lancebeet 4y ago
  I was also curious about this statement. According to wikipedia, one third of the Plötzensee Prison inmates are there due to fare evasion. Or rather, they were when the articles that wikipedia cites were written. Of course, being a juvenile prison in Berlin, it might have the highest rate of fare evader inmates of any prison in the country (which would explain why the articles write about that prison specifically). https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Plötzensee_Prison https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Plötzensee_Prison https://taz.de/135-Schwarzfahrer-hinter-Gittern/!5134051/ https://taz.de/135-Schwarzfahrer-hinter-Gittern/!5134051/ https://www.tagesspiegel.de/berlin/jeder-dritte-in-plotzensee-sitzt-wegen-schwarzfahrens-8598460.html https://www.tagesspiegel.de/berlin/jeder-dritte-in-plotzense...
bionade24 4y ago
I am German and support the degradation of this "crime" to a delict, but even if 1/3 of the emprisoned is there bc of riding without a ticket, which I can hardly believe without a source, you leave out a very important aspect. Most if not all of those aren't emprisoned because they were caught 3 times without a ticket, but because they were on probation when they were caught. Most of those got probation immedeately in court. The law was created in the 1930s by the Nazi government because people "hacked" the new ticket machines, which weren't as secure as today. This wasn't an issue before when selling tickets was done by humans. Sadly western Germany always has been too conservative to change it, the reunification would have been a good chance to overthink every law that originated from the 3rd Reich.
AvocadoPanic 4y ago
I'd rather ride the U-Bahn in Munich than the subway in NYC.
- wikfwikf 4y ago
  Yes, and I'd rather go to prison in Munich than to Rikers Island.

notch656c 4y ago

It will make more sense once you realize the judicial system, cops, prisons etc demand their tribute and if less people are breaking the current laws more will have to be invented or prison sentences made longer. Government apparatuses don't shrink in size. This is why the war on drugs started after prohibition, Henry Anslinger had to go after the evil marijuana. If people stop committing crimes we'll just have to invent more.

JamesBarney 4y ago

Do we have any silver bullets? My understanding is most social services show very small effects once replicated.

TaylorAlexander 4y ago
I think this understanding is incorrect. My understanding is that housing services, mental health services, medical services, transportation infrastructure, and related things like maternity and paternity leave, good labor rights, good pay and fair working conditions all lead to a reduction in low level crime and homelessness. There is no need for a single silver bullet if we have a collection of policies that work. To just pick one issue here is a nice article about housing: https://charterforcompassion.org/shareable-community-ideas/public-housing-works-lessons-from-vienna-and-singapore https://charterforcompassion.org/shareable-community-ideas/p...
- JamesBarney 4y ago
  The fact that some places with affordable housing have much lower crime rates is incredibly far from a replicated RCT (or RCT like data).
  - TaylorAlexander 4y ago
    This is true, but I think RCT-like conditions are hard to create in the social sciences. This does not mean we are unable to make informed policy choices based on the available data.
    - JamesBarney 4y ago
      For interventions they're not that hard, and 99% of correlations that suggest interventions fail to find an effect when they try and RCT. While it's true it's evidence, it is very very very weak evidence.
      - TaylorAlexander 4y ago