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The first thing we need to do is to limit the scope of the web. Make the web tech finite. Stop evolving it. Throw away all the wannabe-app-platform crap and ant

The first thing we need to do is to limit the scope of the web. Make the web tech finite. Stop evolving it. Throw away all the wannabe-app-platform crap and anti-user features like service workers, PWAs, DRM, WebUSB, WebBluetooth, WebSerial, WebMIDI, then declare HTML, CSS, and JS immutable. Third party cookies also need to be abolished, yesterday, with no replacement. Then we could possibly have new, from-scratch, independent browser engines that could compete with the status quo.

kbrosnan 4y ago
That would mean the web is dead. The things you mention would result in more app only experiences.
- grishka 4y ago
  Yes. That's the point. The web is for documents. Please stop trying to build actual apps with hypertext macros. We did have a technology for adding interactive app-like content to hypertext documents, it was called Flash. I do hope that it gets eventually resurrected but as an open standard. There is an open-source Flash player being actively developed right now, Ruffle. There isn't an open-source authoring program yet, but this feels like a much lesser issue. IMO it's important for there to be that boundary between the "document" and the "app". The only real shortcoming of the original Flash was that it relied on a proprietary plugin. Of course, Apple also needs to be forced to allow app sideloading, that's regardless of what they do or do not implement in Safari.
Sargos 4y ago
The web is the only credibly neutral platform humanity has. If you get rid of the web then all software that humans interact with will be controlled by one of a small handful of giant corporations which I think I can speak for nearly everyone here would be a Very Bad Thing. No more porn. No more innovative experiments. No more kids making dumb little things to learn programming. No more freedom to set your own app policies. The web is the only platform keeping user and dev freedom alive and it's imperative that hackers like us fight for it.
- grishka 4y ago
  There needs to be a government regulation that forbids platform gatekeeping. If you sell a general-purpose device or make an OS for such devices, you can't insert yourself between third-party app developers and their users, simple as that. This would solve the problem you're describing.
  - Sargos 4y ago
    When that gets implemented then we can reevaluate the complexity of the web.
- dmitriid 4y ago
  > The web is the only credibly neutral platform humanity has. If you get rid of the web then all software that humans interact with will be controlled by one of a small handful of giant corporations The following things have been pushed and enabled by a single web ad agency with complete disregard to concerns and objections: WebUSB, WebBluetooth, WebSerial, WebMIDI. There are countless others. The web hasn't been neutral for a very long time. Google believes the web is it's own playground now.
charcircuit 4y ago
That would just result in Web 2.0 being created and everyone moving to that.

kbrosnan 4y ago

That would mean the web is dead. The things you mention would result in more app only experiences.

grishka 4y ago
Yes. That's the point. The web is for documents. Please stop trying to build actual apps with hypertext macros. We did have a technology for adding interactive app-like content to hypertext documents, it was called Flash. I do hope that it gets eventually resurrected but as an open standard. There is an open-source Flash player being actively developed right now, Ruffle. There isn't an open-source authoring program yet, but this feels like a much lesser issue. IMO it's important for there to be that boundary between the "document" and the "app". The only real shortcoming of the original Flash was that it relied on a proprietary plugin. Of course, Apple also needs to be forced to allow app sideloading, that's regardless of what they do or do not implement in Safari.

Sargos 4y ago

The web is the only credibly neutral platform humanity has. If you get rid of the web then all software that humans interact with will be controlled by one of a small handful of giant corporations which I think I can speak for nearly everyone here would be a Very Bad Thing. No more porn. No more innovative experiments. No more kids making dumb little things to learn programming. No more freedom to set your own app policies. The web is the only platform keeping user and dev freedom alive and it's imperative that hackers like us fight for it.

grishka 4y ago
There needs to be a government regulation that forbids platform gatekeeping. If you sell a general-purpose device or make an OS for such devices, you can't insert yourself between third-party app developers and their users, simple as that. This would solve the problem you're describing.
- Sargos 4y ago
  When that gets implemented then we can reevaluate the complexity of the web.
dmitriid 4y ago
> The web is the only credibly neutral platform humanity has. If you get rid of the web then all software that humans interact with will be controlled by one of a small handful of giant corporations The following things have been pushed and enabled by a single web ad agency with complete disregard to concerns and objections: WebUSB, WebBluetooth, WebSerial, WebMIDI. There are countless others. The web hasn't been neutral for a very long time. Google believes the web is it's own playground now.

charcircuit 4y ago

That would just result in Web 2.0 being created and everyone moving to that.